Author Topic: John NEISH-mason  (Read 11588 times)

Offline jennywren001

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John NEISH-mason
« on: Wednesday 27 August 14 14:59 BST (UK) »
Hi,
On balance would you take this couple to be John Neish's parents?

In 1774 a John Neish is born to a Robert Neish and Jean Taylor they are living at Tilly(ie)down in the parish of Marnoch.
In 1803 a John Neish married to Margaret Fraser has a son called Alexander while living at Tillydown, Marnoch.

1841 John Neish is still alive but showing on the census as age 55 - born around 1786 - even with rounding this is a bit out. By this time he is living at Cairnhill in Rothiemay parish.

To get an idea of the place I've looked here:
http://www.geograph.org.uk/near/Tillydown/NJ5749

On Freecen there are only 20 people showing living there in 1841 but maybe in the 1780s it was a bigger place altogether?

There are two other John Neish boys born around the same time - both in Rothiemay parish.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XB3G-8LB
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XB3G-8LR

Any help moving forward gratefully received.
Jen
North East Scotland above the Tay...
JOLLY, Johnston,Thom, Rae, Davidson, Fielding, Sherret
FEARN, McKenzie, Stirling [brick wall], Robb, Wilson, Stott
RUSSELL, Fullerton, Christie, Cochrane, Davidson, Coutts, Easton, Scott
FRASER, Henderson, Noble, Mundie, Goodall, Thain, Neish, Moir

Offline jennywren001

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Re: John NEISH-mason
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 06 September 14 18:23 BST (UK) »
Hi Everyone,

I've managed to eliminate the two Johns born Rothiemay and in so doing have accumulated quite a bit of information on their families. I've attached my rough notes in case anyone is looking at either:
John Neish (Weaver) and Isabel McWilliam - married 1774 Rothiemay
or
William Neish (Crofter) and Margaret Marshall - children born Rothiemay from about 1778

I'm not convinced my John is son to Robert and Jean but he is linked to this family is some way given the predominance of Alexanders and the links to both Tilliedown and Cairnhill. I've made a note to add both John and his son Alexander to my must look at Kirk Session Minutes!

Jen

North East Scotland above the Tay...
JOLLY, Johnston,Thom, Rae, Davidson, Fielding, Sherret
FEARN, McKenzie, Stirling [brick wall], Robb, Wilson, Stott
RUSSELL, Fullerton, Christie, Cochrane, Davidson, Coutts, Easton, Scott
FRASER, Henderson, Noble, Mundie, Goodall, Thain, Neish, Moir

Offline GR2

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Re: John NEISH-mason
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 06 September 14 18:34 BST (UK) »
Not very helpful, but just to say the name Neish does not appear on any existing gravestone at Marnoch.

Offline jennywren001

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Re: John NEISH-mason
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 07 September 14 12:11 BST (UK) »
Thanks GR2 at least that's one road I don't have to tread. :) I'm getting to the stage where this family will need an arch lever folder of their own given the amount of paperwork I've got on them.
Jen
North East Scotland above the Tay...
JOLLY, Johnston,Thom, Rae, Davidson, Fielding, Sherret
FEARN, McKenzie, Stirling [brick wall], Robb, Wilson, Stott
RUSSELL, Fullerton, Christie, Cochrane, Davidson, Coutts, Easton, Scott
FRASER, Henderson, Noble, Mundie, Goodall, Thain, Neish, Moir


Offline alisdair810

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Re: John NEISH-mason
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 18 November 14 23:05 GMT (UK) »
Greetings from the Neish clan (Scottish division here) Being a Neish myself I have access to a work of many years building an accurate history of every Neish who ever lived. The work (database) is based on what each of us can contribute but only added to the master database once formal evidence has been produced and confirmed.
Perhaps if you send me details of a later generation or include birth death marriage details i should be able to give you quite a bit of information. ( John Neish, it is implied, ended up in India)  As always Mothers names are crucial especially with the naming habits of our Scottish forefathers.

Offline jennywren001

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Re: John NEISH-mason
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 19 November 14 15:15 GMT (UK) »
Hi and welcome to RootsChat,
Reading back on this I see it's all a bit vague.  Perhaps, this will shed more light on why I'm interested in John Neish.
This is him in 41 living Cairnhill, Rothiemay :
NEISH    John       M    55       Mason        Banffshire           
NEISH    Alexander   M    35       Mason        Banffshire           
NEISH    John       M    10                       Banffshire           
ROBB    Benjamin   M    35       Sawyer        Outside Census County (1841)
CONNON    Margaret   F    15       Female Servant    Outside Census County (1841)       

John Neish and Margaret Fraser are the parents of a Mary Neish born 1811 in Marnoch.  Mary Neish (my 3xGGM) marries Alexander Henderson in Oct 1832. The OPR for Rothiemay lists the bride's abode as Cairnhill and the father of the bride as John Neish. On Mary's death certificate from 1892 her father is listed as John Neish, mason. On all census Mary lists her place of birth as Marnoch. 

John Neish and Margaret Fraser look to have had at least five children:
Alexander b. 1803 d. 1870 - single (showing with his father in the 41 census above with his own son John born 1831 to a Mary Taylor). 
John b.1805 (no trace)
Mary b. 1811 d. 1892
William b. 1815 (no trace)
William Dason b. 1816 (no trace)

A Margaret Neish is born 1822 to a John Neish and a Jean Horn.  I'm pretty sure the John involved is Mary's father rather than brother.  Margaret marries twice - the first marriage in Dec 1841 is to a Benjamin Robb (also on above 41 census) bride's abode Cairnhill, father John Neish mason. On the 41 census a Margaret 'Neich' age 15 is living with Mary Henderson. Margaret dies in 1886 - death certificate helpfully lists father as - Neish!

I really don't think at the age of around 60 my John Neish the mason would up sticks and head off for India. I'm presuming he died between 1843 (when he is witness to Margaret's second wedding) and 1851 when only Alexander is living at Cairnhill. I do not know what happened to Alexander's son John b. 1831 or his brother John b. 1805 or in fact the two Williams.

I'm presuming Margaret Fraser was not alive when John had a child with Jean Horn and named her Margaret. Although upon reflection is seems a bit weird in these circumstances to name your daughter after your dead wife. You can see why I need to visit the Kirk sessions.

Margaret Fraser seems almost to have never existed. No mother is listed on Alexander's death certificate and on Mary's her mother is down as Margaret Walker - which is Mary's sister's name after she marries Francis Walker in 1843!

I have no idea who Margaret Connon age 15 is she is down as a servant on the above census but with this family who knows? I am also baffled by the naming of the second William - his middle name 'Dason' means nothing to me.

You'd think with only 15 Neishes showing in Banffshire for 41 this would be a relatively easy family to sort out!
Jen








North East Scotland above the Tay...
JOLLY, Johnston,Thom, Rae, Davidson, Fielding, Sherret
FEARN, McKenzie, Stirling [brick wall], Robb, Wilson, Stott
RUSSELL, Fullerton, Christie, Cochrane, Davidson, Coutts, Easton, Scott
FRASER, Henderson, Noble, Mundie, Goodall, Thain, Neish, Moir

Offline alisdair810

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Re: John NEISH-mason
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 19 November 14 23:35 GMT (UK) »
I can see why you are confuddled!

Ok first look - Mary Neish,
I have as born 28th August, 1811 in marnoch to John neish and Maragaret Fraser. Died 1892, married Alexander Henderson in 1832. The notes iclude 7 children and ref to Gamrie Banffshire and Rothiemay again bannfshire.
So her mother Margaret Fraser - produced three children
Mary 1811, and
William march 1815 who appears to have died in infancy (before 1816), and as was quite common another
William Dason Neish 28th Oct, 1816. The father in all cases being John Neish.
There are no further records for either William, but we have full documentation for Mary.
I also have a Margaret Neish born of a Jane Horn (not Jean) on 20 mar 1822 and John Neish as the father. Margaret appears to have married twice, Benjamin Robb and Francis Walker 1841 and 1843.
So if I am on the right track I now need to establish which John Neish we are looking at. We seem to have produced them on an industrial scale!!
Interestingly Jane Horn does not appear as anyone’s spouse.
I'm off to do some homework!

Offline jennywren001

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Re: John NEISH-mason
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 20 November 14 12:20 GMT (UK) »
Looked back at the OPRs for the Henderson children's births.  John and Alexander Neish at Rothiemay are showing as witnesses up till William's birth in March 1847 so John must have lived until then at least.

Do you have any reason to believe that Alexander and John are not the children of John and Margaret Fraser?  She is listed as the mother on their birth records and Alexander's age at death indicates a birth around 1803/4.

1822 John Neish and Jane (does look more like Jane on the original document) Horn in Tillydown had twins (in fornication) James and Margaret.

Jen
North East Scotland above the Tay...
JOLLY, Johnston,Thom, Rae, Davidson, Fielding, Sherret
FEARN, McKenzie, Stirling [brick wall], Robb, Wilson, Stott
RUSSELL, Fullerton, Christie, Cochrane, Davidson, Coutts, Easton, Scott
FRASER, Henderson, Noble, Mundie, Goodall, Thain, Neish, Moir

Offline alisdair810

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Re: John NEISH-mason
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 20 November 14 23:15 GMT (UK) »
There were sizeable numbers of Neish known to have lived in this are since well before 1715. Yet more with bizarre medieval spellings. Because we cannot yet prove who is related to who I will ignore them for now. You may understand this better as you read on:-

Back further into history - So, we will start with Alexander Neish Born about 1715 died after 1778 married Ann or Janet Reid born about 1715 in Rothiemay Banffshire, Kids and our start for this family line were:-
Isobel 1737 - after 1777 Married John Loban 1766, 3 kids Janet 1768, Jean 1773, Margaret 1777.
Robert about 1739 - before 1801 Married Jean Taylor1769, Marnoch 4 kids, Alexander 1769, William 1772, John 1774, Janet 1778
Alexander 1741 - after 1769 no marraige or kids recorded
William about 1744 - Married Margaret Marshall born 1750 in 1776 , 7 kids Janet 1777 - 1858, John 1779 1861, Isobel 1782, Alexander 1786 - bef 1855, William 1789 - 1865, Elspeeth 1791 1858, Robert 1793 - 1870.
John about 1746 - 1791 Married Isabel Mcwilliam born bef 1748 and 3 kids Alexander 1774 - 1853, John 1778 1866, Robert 1781 - 1872 . There is also a child by Janet Reid - William 1769 in King Edward aberdeen. No other details.
Even by this stage the family is quite large all living close to the Rothiemay area of Banffshire. It is probable that the first Alexander Neish was a tenant farmer at a place called "Fowlfolds" in Rothiemay.  (This was a Farm around a  Duckpond, which still exists and neighbouring ruins listed by Aberdeen council as an ancient ruin still exist although the current owners of the area do not allow access.) The point here being the concentration of Neish with similar names in a very small area. I believe the references to Marnoch are where the records were kept. The same naming scheme continues throughout the extended forefathers and offspring who I haven't extrapolated out. They all seemed to live within a days walk of each other making it very difficult to sort out John from John especially when the records are centralised as happened in all the parishes.

So we now have your line, Alexander] then son Robert then son John 1774 marrying Margaret Fraser in 1801 who appears to die in childbirth or shortly thereafter about 1816-1820.  Their kids were, Jean 1801, Alexander 1803 - 1870, John 1805, Mary 1811 - 1892, William 1815 and William Dason Neish in 1816. After Margaret's death we see Jane Horn but he (John) never marries her. John and Jane have 2 kids James 1822 - 1864 and Margaret 1822 1886. No ref to twins though.

So we now have the Mary 1811 1892 married at Rothiemay 21st October, 1832 to Alexander Henderson and having 7 kids. John, 1832, Alexander 1838, Janet 1841, Jean 1844, William 1847 to after 1892, George 1849, and Mary Grant henderson 1852.
The Margaret Neish you mentioned would have been Mary's half sister, married twice Bejamin Robb 1805 - 1842-3, then Francis Walker 1805 1885 and having 6 kids. so John Neish 1774 was her father. Her cause of death senile decay (better than the alternative name of brain fat)
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