John NEISH-mason

[warble]

Fowlfolds wasn't actually a farm but a group of six crofts. One of them was tenanted by my Reid ancestors. I don't think there was a pond at that time either. The landscape has been altered a lot by the current owners.

[jennywren001]

That's such a wonderful story but I'm still concerned that I'm accepting Robert and Jean Taylor as John's parents through a process of elimination while using an incomplete set of birth records. As you can see from my attached rough notes I had discounted the Johns born to the Neish/McWilliam and Neish/Marshall pairings. That rather conveniently left (from the available records) the John born to Robert in 1774. Now, the first problem I have is in 1841 John's age is given as 55 so with rounding lets go top end and say he's 59 - that's a birth date of around 1782 - eight years out at best.

Next, John names his first son Alexander, then we have John then William not once but twice - no Robert.

The John Neish born in 1774 has a date of birth of April the 28th and a baptism on April the 29th  - such a quick baptism could indicate a child who was unlikely to survive.

Unless this area of Scotland is unique there must be some unrecorded births - especially those children born outside of wedlock.

That Neish marriage in 1801 in Forgue - I'm left wondering who is the Neish is who marries a Sim? There are also links with Forgue that I have yet to work out.

Was the Jannet Neish born to William and Margaret Mercer in 1877 the same Janet who dies in 1858 with a father listed as William Neish and mother listed as Margaret Marshall on her death certificate?

Like I said fascinating story but I'd not be adding my John to your database just yet I think there are just too many unknowns...

Jen

ps
On the 1822 OPR for James and Margaret the word 'twins' is circled next to their entry....

[alisdair810]

Hello Warble, I will try and find a link for you. Aberdeen City Council Archive have archive photographs showing both the pond and ruined farm buildings, old maps showing at least two revised building layouts and the ruin is included in their record of ancient ruins. (links to follow) I cant argue about who else lived there, the downside of the one name study is the lack of information on relatives other than wives / mothers. The Reid ancestor you mentioned wouldn't happen to be Ann or Janet? Do you have a date?
I do know there appeared to be a good going business across several generations. Don't know if you have seen this, Google map pic current https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@57.5251686,-2.7859818,17z  viewing either the map or sat view clearly showing the natural ponds, and 1852 ordinance survey http://www.scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/record/nls/6820/ordnance-survey-25-inch-mile-banff-sheet-02102/os25inch You might need to zoom this in a wee bit and it should be noted the land was by this time cut into long strips under the runrig system and shows as a group of crofts. The group could explain why so many Neish are recorded as living there.
I also enclose a link: http://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/catalogue/adsdata/arch-352-1/dissemination/pdf/vol_069/69_223_250.pdf which highlights the importance of this little village in transport terms and tax collecting and a seat of power.

[alisdair810]

I'll start with the easy bit. Sorry, I was being thick! failed to notice two births in same year - this is usually twins. (Iwill do better!)
Next, The daughter of Robert Neish and Jean Taylor Janet b 1778 married a John Sim in forgue aberdeenshire which is about 2 - 3 miles from Marnoch. No recorded Children, But I dont have death records for either so they could have moved.There are army records in this portion of the family as well.
The practice of giving a baby the same name as its deceased sibling is actually quite common. And , there were quite a few very quick baptisms who survived. As for children born but not recorded, the power exerted by the Presbyterian church at this time can be seen in the article I posted earlier (and Robert Burns poetry)

Moving back to your John.
I have 3 John Neish in a very short time, our John as you proposed 1774 in Marnoch, or another born in Rothiemay 1778 of John and Agnes Horn The grandparents being John 1746 and Isabel McWilliam, and another in 1779 of John and Catherine Murray. The grandparents being William 1744 and Margaret Marshall 1792 - 185? They had 7 kids including a Margaret born 1835. There are a lot more Johns in the wings but I have stuck with likely dates. The 1779 John went off and joined the army and didn't marry till 1821 – you never know
What I cant see is what you currently know for certain. From there I have access to the official documents to work backward in time via the mothers. In most cases the people who have worked on this will create a family tree and PAF file if asked, but only when we are certain we have the right details. So who are you certain about?
You may be right about unrecorded births, but they would be recorded in the deaths or similar official records.

[jennywren001]

Many thanks for the links, I think for most people in Scotland in the 1800s that dovecote would have been better housing than what they were used to!

Going back in time this is what I have documented ('know' is another matter altogether ).

1875 - George Henderson, cooper, age 24 married Margaret S Mundie in Fraserburgh his parents listed as Alexander Henderson and Mary Neish
Census 81 George with Margaret living Fraserburgh - birth place showing Turriff
Census 91 George with Margaret living Montrose - birth place showing Turriff (George dies in Montrose in 1917 - same parents showing on his DC)
71 he's boarding in Fraserburgh now a cooper showing born Turriff, in 61 and 51 I have him with his parents and siblings.
Gamrie and Macduff OPR -"George lawful son to Alexander Henderson and Mary Neish born at Turriff 28th July 1849 and baptised before the congregation." So pretty sure I've got the correct George Henderson.   That's how I get back to Mary Neish....

From SP I have a list of Neish (and variations) births in both Aberdeen and Banffshire from 1700 to 1854 - no where in the list is a Jean born 1801 to John Neish and Margaret Fraser.

The marriages in Forgue in 1801 only show surnames - I'm making an educated guess that's John Neish and Margaret Fraser - I can't find the bans called in Banffshire.

OK, in trying to find the parents of John Neish the mason I've now got a heap of documents on the walking distance Neish gang - I'm going to put that in some order. Think I'll just give up even thinking about Margaret Fraser the invisible woman.....
Jen

[alisdair810]

I have extracted the following data straight from both my database and PAF files. If this first one is correct so are the others.
Mary Neish born 28/8/1811 in Marnoch Banff Father John Neish, Mother Margaret Fraser Death 1892 marriage 1832 in Gamrie Banffshire in Rothiemay Banffshire in Macduff Banffshire 7 children OPR GROS IGI Ba:C111612 So:990988 & 155/A2 0046
Addresses:
     65 Gellymile Street, Gamrie, Banffshire (1881)
     59 Duff Street, Macduff, Banffshire (1892)

born 1811 gledfield Marnoch Banffshire
christened 28/8/1811 Marnoch (note same day)
Died 19/9/1892 Macduff banff fatty degeneration of the heart

Husband Alexander Henderson  General labourer Addresses:  65 Gellymile Street, Gamrie, Banffshire (1881)

Father
Father John Neish Mason 1774 28th April  (1841) Marnoch Banff, Father Robert Neish, Mother Jean Taylor Married Margaret Fraser in 1801, also Jane Horn,
OPR IGI Lawrie 1841

Addresses: in Forgue Aberdeenshire in Alvah Banffshire mason in Rothiemay Banffshire
     Muiryhill, Alvah, Banffshire (1801)
     Tillydown, Marnoch, Banffshire (1801)
     Cairnhill, Marnoch, Banffshire (1805)
     Gledfield, Marnoch, Banffshire (1811-16)
     Cairnhill, Rothiemay, Banffshire (1841)

Mother Janet REID Addresses:
     Core of Mayen, Rothiemay, Banffshire
     Mouth of Tillidown, Marnoch, Banffshire (1769)
     Foordmouth, Marnoch, Banffshire (1772)
     Tillidown, Marnoch, Banffshire (1774-78)
Jean
Addresses:
     Mouth of Tillidown, Marnoch, Banffshire (1769)
     Foordmouth, Marnoch, Banffshire (1772)
     Tillidown, Marnoch, Banffshire (1774-78)

The addresses and dates tie in throughout so I think we have the correct people. If you pm me an email address I can ask John Neish (a current one) to end you copies of your PAF file and any additional info since my last update.
Alisdair

[jennywren001]

Many thanks for the data. I finally found the OPR for Jean 'Nish' born 1801 they left that wedding a bit late  . On the OPR it does not state when Mary was born only the baptism date - how do you know she was both born and baptised on the same day - I'm just curious as most of the other children on the page are showing both dates but not Mary? Is the same day inferred or am I missing a record?

I'm now convinced the Margaret Marshall/Merschal/Mercer is the same woman - not quite as good as the Dundonian one I found for Marshall - Mairshell. So no stray Janets floating around.

I'm going to write up what I now know about this group of Neishes and see if it makes sense to me - starting to feel like a one name study. One thing for sure the birth records reflect a more accurate picture than say those in Kincardineshire.
 

Jen

[alisdair810]

Our one name record is the product of many years search by a great number of people but carefully co-ordinated by a few dedicated specialists and the records archived and computerised centrally. The ref no's are available to me and I suppose copies if I needed them. So the record is accurate or clearly labelled that more research is needed. For my own part I am interested in linking in those who have made it into history. Hangings on both sides of the Jacobite rebellion, or the last servant of Bonnie prince Charlie, or Captain Neish who brought Jute to Dundee, or which Neish signed the Westminster confession of faith. WW1 did for a lot of us but it was alo the making of many. There are many today in very prestigious positions medicine, research, academia, the Law to Astronaut. I have found that mistakes in records are far from uncommon even to totally different spelling boarding to disembarking a boat. I'm always happy to hear anything of interest as well! Pleased to have helped a little! Alisdair

[warble]

Hello Alisdair,
The position of one of the steadings at Foulfolds (the one with the horse mill) seems to be under the waters of the new landscape feature:- http://maps.nls.uk/view/82870629
My ancestor James Reid was listed as a crofter in 1841 and the family remained there into the 20th century. The Reids were the most numerous (equal to the Smiths) in Rothiemay at that time.

The account for the Rev William Hay's stipend at Rothiemay around 1710 does not list Foulfolds although the farm of Cairnhill was listed at "one plugh of land, inde £5 1 boll 3 fir" and the other farms in Rothiemay are all listed.

There is an estate plan of 1821 in Aberdeen Special Collections for the "Plan of farm and crofts of Cairnhill with possessions of Fowlfolds" so it may be that Cairnhill was subdivided when the Duffs took over the estate.