Cumming in Carmunnock - Cathkin - East Kilbride area

[brucecumming]

I have done a lot of research on the Cummings in this area and many trees go back as far as John Cumming (1716-1789) and Agnes Thomson. There are references to Heugh or Hew Cumming (hearth tax) in 1694 and mentioned as a church elder in Carmunnock in 1692.

I believe my ancestors were tenant farmers on the Cathkin farm owned by Humphrey then Walter Ewing McLae. They left for Canada about 1844.

A couple of main questions - I have spent a lot of time but have found no direct relationships to the other Cumming families in the area (e.g. Rutherglen, Cambuslang) or to any of the many ones in the various areas in Glasgow. Does anybody know if or how they are related or where they came from?

I can see early mentions of "Cwmyng" or "Cwmynge" in the East Kilbride area as far back as 1557.

I also wonder about my ancestors, as they did not show up in the 1841 census. My great great grandmother Agnes Cumming gave birth to an illegitimate child (my GGF) in 1840 or 1841. Would the entire family have hidden or wanted to avoid the census due to the scandal?

I am hoping that the Kirk session records will be made available online soon so I can possibly determine the name of the father. Anybody have an idea how soon before these records will be available? Thanks.

Terry

[DonM]

Terry,

There was only 1 birth of a Cumming (incl variants) in East Kilbride from 1700-1800.  The 1841 has only two residents, Robert an Ag Lab at Busby and then James his wife Agnes daughter Margaret and John (5 mo) at Basket where he was an ironstone miner.  Both of these are transient trades, difficult to pinpoint where they came from. Do you know your Agnes' maiden name?

Don

[brucecumming]

Terry,

 Do you know your Agnes' maiden name?

Don

Thank you Don. Sorry but I was unclear about one thing - the birth mother was Agnes Cumming (b May 25, 1821 in Carmunnock). The bastard child (my great grandfather Robert Cumming) assumed her surname. The identity of the father is unknown. YDNA tests suggest possible Irish origin (R1b-M222). Whether coincidence or not, Agnes eventually married an Irish Catholic in Canada (Daniel McKernan).

I believe my Cummings were tenant farmers at Cathkin from 1667 at least up into the 1800s. The final three children born to James Cumming and Agnes Craig (my 3X great grandparents) were registered in East Kilbride rather than Carmunnock from 1825-1829 (not sure why the change but I haven't verified that info myself).

Thanks.

Terry

[Ruskie]

Welcome to rootschat Terry.

I'm unable to help with your queries, however I just wanted to mention that it is very unlikely that the whole Cummings family would have hidden themselves away due to any scandal related to Agnes having an illegitimate child. It was not such a scandal as we might expect especially the further back in time you go. It is more likely that the family cannot be found in the census due to a mistransciption error. Are you using Ancestry for you Scottish censuses, because I know that their transcriptions leave a lot to be desired.

If you tell us who else you expect to be with Agnes in 1841, and where you expect to find them, we can have a look to see if we can spot them. If she was the only family member omitted, then Agnes could have been away from home having the baby, but if the entire family are missing, I would look for other explanations.

I would not put too much weight in the DNA results in the search for the father, as I believe there was a lot of Scottish/Irish intereaction, so thinking he was Irish might send you down the wrong path.

[sancti]

How did you confirm that Robert was born in Carmunnock?

When did Agnes emigrate to Canada?

Who travelled with her?

[brucecumming]

Welcome to rootschat Terry.

I'm unable to help with your queries, however I just wanted to mention that it is very unlikely that the whole Cummings family would have hidden themselves away due to any scandal related to Agnes having an illegitimate child. It was not such a scandal as we might expect especially the further back in time you go. It is more likely that the family cannot be found in the census due to a mistransciption error. Are you using Ancestry for you Scottish censuses, because I know that their transcriptions leave a lot to be desired.

If you tell us who else you expect to be with Agnes in 1841, and where you expect to find them, we can have a look to see if we can spot them. If she was the only family member omitted, then Agnes could have been away from home having the baby, but if the entire family are missing, I would look for other explanations.

I would not put too much weight in the DNA results in the search for the father, as I believe there was a lot of Scottish/Irish intereaction, so thinking he was Irish might send you down the wrong path.

Thanks for the insight on the scandal aspect - that is enlightening. I searched at Family Search and sometimes with Scotland's People for the 1841 census looking for matching family units (searched all of Lanarkshire). Of course the names are all so common - Agnes, James, John, etc., which doesn't help.

What is the probability that the census takers could simply have missed them? Given the closeness of the census (1841) to the time they finally left for Canada (~1844), I wonder if there had been some upheaval (financial issues or other).

RE: DNA and the Irish aspect - I agree with you - the unknown man could be Scottish or Irish as the people migrated back and forth. In the absence of any other info I guess (only a guess) that Agnes was either a farm servant and hooked up with another servant, or perhaps was a washer woman who perhaps went to Glasgow and had some interaction there.

Terry

[brucecumming]

How did you confirm that Robert was born in Carmunnock?

When did Agnes emigrate to Canada?

Who travelled with her?

Good questions. I have no birth record for Robert Cumming and I have only found family trees on ancestry.ca that have given his birth date and location. Questions as to the origin of his information have gone unanswered. However his ancestors were born in Carmunnock and birth records from Scotland's People have been obtained. So yes, I do not know for certain that he was born there and given that the birth was illegitimate there could be some possibility of it being elsewhere.

I have searched Scotland's people for all males named Cumming, first name Robert with any last name and also searched by birth date with any name born anywhere in Scotland and not found a good match.

His purported birth date is Sept 16, 1840 (again no one can confirm where this came from). Various Canadian census dates make me wonder if his birth year was actually 1841. His gravestone says 1840 though (died 1914).

Family history handed down has indicated the 1844 emigration to Canada. I can also cite this old conversation with entries from a book ("A Dictionary of Scottish Emigrants to Canada before Confederation." - I have not seen this personally):

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/SCOTS-IN-CANADA/2007-01/1168706145

Agnes married Daniel McKernan in 1848 in Canada. Agnes' father James Cumming (1789-1846) died in 1846 in Canada - I have visited his grave several times.

My great aunt (and daughter of Robert) apparently knew the identity of his unknown father but was reluctant to talk about it and the name was not recorded for posterity (and hence my search, DNA tests, etc.).

Thank you.

Terry

[sancti]

Have you found them in Canadian census records?

[Ruskie]

Terry, Just one small point, presumably when searching Scotland's People and other sites, you have also tried Cummings, and other likely spellings of the surname?

So in the 1841 Scottish census we might be looking for Agnes, her parents James and Agnes, and possibly baby Robert if he was born in time for the census? Any other family members who might be in the household that you are unable to find anywhere else? Names, dates and places of birth of the family members, plus where you expect them to be living may help someone locate them for you.

Added: It can happen that families do not (seem to) appear and we think they must have been missed off the census, but we can only speculate about that. I suppose if we can't find them we assume they have been missed but there can be any number of reasons they can't be found - mistranscription, perhaps living with other family and listed under that surname - many errors do occur and I think we all have some stories about weird and wonderful errors found on census records.