Author Topic: Who was Elsie Nichols ? Bridesmaid in 1907  (Read 10861 times)

Offline Jennaya

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Re: Who was Elsie Nichols ? Bridesmaid in 1907
« Reply #27 on: Monday 29 September 14 12:05 BST (UK) »
In the sydney morning herald of 3 october 1918,  the noticed by both alice david and elsie stirrat,  commemorating the first anniversary of their mother's death,   say that their father william nicholls died 21 March 1890.

The death of this William Nicholls is in the herald of 25 March 1890:

" NICHOLLS.-March 21, at Callan Park Hospital, William Nicholls, after a long illness from affection of lungs and brain, in his 50th year, leaving a wife and large family to mourn their loss."

This is a different family to the William Nicholls who lived at Mudgee and died in 1934.


I agree, I think we can eliminate this family.

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Offline Jennaya

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Re: Who was Elsie Nichols ? Bridesmaid in 1907
« Reply #28 on: Monday 29 September 14 12:07 BST (UK) »
Is it possible that one of William's sisters had a child (Elsie) before she married? This would explain the surname of Nicholls.

I was referring here to your William's younger sisters as mentioned in post#1

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Offline Jennaya

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Re: Who was Elsie Nichols ? Bridesmaid in 1907
« Reply #29 on: Monday 29 September 14 12:19 BST (UK) »

This Sophia Madgwick had one brother,  who was married in 1906 and whose oldest son was born in 1907.   Sophia also had 9 much older half-siblings by the name of Nicholls or Nichols,  the offspring of her mother's first marriage.  Obviously,  this alleged niece would seem to be one of their children.  But whose  ?

The other 8 of Sophia Madgwick's Nichols half-sisters were females.   Apart from one who died aged 6,   the others had a whole bunch of children. 

Sophia's half-sisters were:
Catherine (1851? 1937) married Dougherty, 13 children.
Elizabeth (1856-1931) married New, 5 children
Ellen (1861?-?) married Brown, 9 children.  When this lady died, is another mystery.
Mary(1864-??) married New and then McLeod. 2 children.
Margaret(1866-1905) married McLeod, 8 children
Flora(1868-1952) married Clifton, probably 2 children.

I think that there is a sister missing here. There are 6 named plus the one who died aged 6. Was there another?

Regards
Jennaya

Offline majm

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Re: Who was Elsie Nichols ? Bridesmaid in 1907
« Reply #30 on: Monday 29 September 14 12:24 BST (UK) »
NSW ER 1870 MUDGEE
William NICHOL of Two mile Flat, residence, Two mile flat
John Henry NICHOLS, of Mudgee, household, Cox Street
William NICHOLS, of Two mile Flat, residence, Two mile flat
Charles NICHOLLS, of Campbell’s Creek, freehold, Campbell’s Creek

NSW ER 1878 MUDGEE
NICHOLLS Charles, senior, Campbell’s Creek, freehold, Campbell’s Creek
NICHOLLS Charles, junior of Campbell’s Creek, freehold, Campbell’s Creek
NICHOLLS, James, of Campbell’s Creek, freehold, Campbell’s Creek
NICHOLLS, Harry M of Slasher’s Flat, residence, Slasher’s Flat
NICHOLS Henry M, of Grattai, residence, Grattai
TOYINGTON Isaac, of Bara Creek, leasehold, Bara Creek
TOYNTON John Wright of Bara Creek, residence, Bara Creek
TOYRINGTON Isac Wright of Bara Creek, residence, Bara Creek

May I enquire please as to the 1907 marriage certificate?  On that document, how old was Sophia, and how was her maiden name recorded by the officiating minister/registrar?  What information did she provide about her parents? 

Cheers,  JM
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Offline majm

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Re: Who was Elsie Nichols ? Bridesmaid in 1907
« Reply #31 on: Monday 29 September 14 12:36 BST (UK) »
Grevilles PO Directory 1875 DENISONTOWN
James MAGIC, farmer, Talbragar
Mary NICHOLS, selector, Talbragar

NSW ER 1870 THE BOGAN
James MAGICK, of Coorootheic, freehold, at Talbragar River
Joseph NICHOLLS, of Mungery, residence, at Bogan River

So, who was Mary NICHOLS, selector at Talbragar is she the widow who re-married?

Cheers,  JM
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Offline majm

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Re: Who was Elsie Nichols ? Bridesmaid in 1907
« Reply #32 on: Monday 29 September 14 12:53 BST (UK) »
Births/Baptisms for the girls
Catherine NICHOLLS, Vol 40, line 1210, 1854
Elizabeth NICHOLS Vol 121B, line 4269, 1856
Ellen NICHOLS, #7083, 1861 registered Coonabarabran
Mary NICHOLS #7638, 1864 registered Cassilis
Margaret J NICHOLS #7613, 1866, registered Cassilis
Flora S NICHOLS, #8364,  1868, registered Cassilis
Sophia L MAGICK,  # 11031, 1878 registered Cassilis



Cheers,  JM
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Offline thetowers

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Re: Who was Elsie Nichols ? Bridesmaid in 1907
« Reply #33 on: Monday 29 September 14 14:04 BST (UK) »
To address your questions in some sort of chronological order, as I understand it ( the file is about 2 inches thick, this is the 300 word summary).  Some of these, I have verified myself,  some by my brother-in-laws's sister, aunt and cousin,   and some from other people.

James Madgwick and his brother William were from Windsor NSW.  Their purported father William Madgwick dies in 1860 at the reputed age of 108.  They moved to the NW frontier, where James remained and William returned to Windsor.  The actual father of them may have been a man called Westbrook,  which is someone else's problem, not mine.

James was married to a half-aboriginal woman and had about 13 children. She died on 15 October 1872.

Meanwhile, Mary Cameron was born in Scotland and came to Australia, aged about 5, in 1839.  In 1849,  she married at Dubbo a man called John Nichols or Nicholls,  who appears to have been a former convict but now some kind of policeman.  Depending which documents you believe, they had between 8 and 10 children.   John Nichols died at Mudgee on 29 August 1868.  At some point he retired or was fired from the police and he had a small selection at Denison Town.

The widow Mary was married to James Madgwick or Magick on 2 September 1875 and she had two more children, Archibald born 23 June 1876 and Sophia born 28 August 1878.  James Madgwick died in December 1880 at "Pine Ridge" station.    He also owned a property at Cobbora.  If the birth date for Sophia is correct, she was 71 and a half when she died,  the tombstone says 70 I think, close enough for me.  There isn't a copy of the actual marriage certificate in the file I have,  she would have been 28 or 29 when she married.  In 1907,  he father was dead since 1880 and her mother was still alive and present and appears to be mentioned,  as Mrs Madgwick, in the newspaper account of the wedding.

Magick or Madgwick, it's the same people, I don't know if they could not spell  or numerologists or Mr Westbrook or whatever.

It's confusing the posts now appear in the reverse order.

The James Madgwick at Cobbora in 1870 and the James Magic at Denison Town in 1875 are the same person.  The Mary Nichols, selector, at Denison Town is the same person,  she was a widow for 7 years before her second marriage,  which probably occured in 1875 after the directory compiler had come along so he didn't get her new married name.

There were several other families called Nichols or Nicholls in the Mudgee region.   None of the people in your post listing people near Mudgee seem to be connected,  as far as I can tell from what I have here.

John Wright Toynton was the father of George Henry Toynton who married Sophia Madgwick in 1907.  I dunno about Isaac.

Archibald Magick,  who was a businessman at Binnaway and died in 1974 aged 96,  used the name Magick consistently.   Sophia used the name Madgwick.   The children of James Madgwick's first marriage,   who mostly lived at Gilgandra,  appear to have used both spellings indiscriminately.









Offline thetowers

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Re: Who was Elsie Nichols ? Bridesmaid in 1907
« Reply #34 on: Monday 29 September 14 14:15 BST (UK) »
Jennaya has hit the nail on the head by pointing out the numerical discrepancy in what I said before about Mary Cameron's daughters.

The missing one is Ann Agnes Nichols.   This woman appears anachronistically in the old church records born 10 December 1862 baptised 12 July 1864 by Rev Alexander McEwan, abode Denison Town father John Nichols.  According to the file,  no birth registration has been found.

This woman appears to have died on or about 11 April 1936 at Little Bay.  The SMH of 14 April has "Funeral Notice:  Nichols -  The funeral of the late Mrs Agnes Annie Nichols will leave our private Mortuary Chapel, 265 Elizabeth-street, Sydney, this Tuesday at 1:30 PM for Botany Cemetery.   Mrs P Kirby and Son, Ltd,  leading funeral directors, 265 Elizabeth-street Sydney."

Note that Nichols here has 1 L,  registry index entry has 2 L's.   Also,  deceased is described as "Mrs Agnes Annie Nichols",   although she appears to have never married.

The file says this is death 6527 of 1936,  Agnes Annie Nicholls,  parents John and Mary.  It is unclear whether my in-laws have verified this with an official certificate.


Offline thetowers

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Re: Who was Elsie Nichols ? Bridesmaid in 1907
« Reply #35 on: Monday 29 September 14 14:27 BST (UK) »
Quote
Is it possible that one of William's sisters had a child (Elsie) before she married? This would explain the surname of Nicholls.

If one of William's married sisters had a pre-nuptial child in the 1880's,   you'd think they would be trying to gloss over or obscure this 25 years later,  rather than drawing everybody's attention to it, in the newspaper.     Unless somebody had an axe to grind.

But what about the un-married sister ?     I noticed this one

Birth reg 23209 of 1885,  Helsey M Nichols,  mother Annie A,  father not stated,  district Cassilis.

Is "Helsey" a name ?

Based on the amount of stuff in the file compared to the others,  it appears my in-laws never found out very much about this Ann Agnes Nichols.