Author Topic: Invented - but from where?  (Read 9433 times)

Offline ThrelfallYorky

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 3,587
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Invented - but from where?
« Reply #9 on: Tuesday 30 September 14 18:29 BST (UK) »
Basically, I've always assumed it's all a bit of an ego-trip combined with a con-trick!!
I know of one very simple coat of arms associated with my surname (and usually, with heraldry, the simpler it is, the older it is) and another one, which uses the first elaborately quartered with God only knows what, which crops up with monotonous regularity online, usually attached to American trees (sorry: there we go again) - and yet I know quite firmly that in MY direct line there never has been a person who has had a Grant of Arms - and one namesake and only distant relative late 19th / early 20th C, who has been entitled to bear Arms!!
It makes me quite proud that there's "Nowt noble" about my family history!
As said earlier - those firms are in it to make money, and it's really looked on by many as quite sad to sport a coat of arms in any form to which you have no true title. I suppose it's a bit like all the people diligently wearing tartan (19th cent invention really) when tourists in Scotland, who have hopped into a "House of Tartan" or similar, and been flogged the whole kit "related" to their surname! Amusing, but not for real.
Threlfall (Southport), Isherwood (lancs & Canada), Newbould + Topliss(Derby), Keating & Cummins (Ireland + lancs), Fisher, Strong& Casson (all Cumberland) & Downie & Bowie, Linlithgow area Scotland . Also interested in Leigh& Burrows,(Lancashire) Griffiths (Shropshire & lancs), Leaver (Lancs/Yorks) & Anderson(Cumberland and very elusive)

Offline Guy Etchells

  • Deceased † Rest In Peace
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • ********
  • Posts: 4,632
    • View Profile
Re: Invented - but from where?
« Reply #10 on: Wednesday 01 October 14 06:51 BST (UK) »
There are three legal ways to acquire a "Coat of Arms" in England and Wales.

The first and oldest way is to simply design and assume the Achievement this is the way the first "Coat of Arms" came into existence and is still a legal way to gain them.
Note, as with all new "Arms" they must be a new design not a copy or adaption of an existing Achievement.

The second and indeed second oldest way is by Royal Warrant or Grant.
The monarch being in control of all heraldry in England & Wales is entitled to grant "Arms" as she/he wishes.

The third and most recent method is by a Herald of the College of Arms.
These newbies to the scene grant "Arms" in the name of the monarch so that she/he may concentrate on more important matters of state. ;)
Cheers
Guy
http://anguline.co.uk/Framland/index.htm   The site that gives you facts not promises!
http://burial-inscriptions.co.uk Tombstones & Monumental Inscriptions.

As we have gained from the past, we owe the future a debt, which we pay by sharing today.

Offline ThrelfallYorky

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 3,587
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Invented - but from where?
« Reply #11 on: Thursday 02 October 14 16:55 BST (UK) »
Lovely reply. I can just imagine some really modern images!
Threlfall (Southport), Isherwood (lancs & Canada), Newbould + Topliss(Derby), Keating & Cummins (Ireland + lancs), Fisher, Strong& Casson (all Cumberland) & Downie & Bowie, Linlithgow area Scotland . Also interested in Leigh& Burrows,(Lancashire) Griffiths (Shropshire & lancs), Leaver (Lancs/Yorks) & Anderson(Cumberland and very elusive)

Offline Temic

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 90
    • View Profile
Re: Invented - but from where?
« Reply #12 on: Tuesday 28 October 14 04:29 GMT (UK) »
The first and oldest way is to simply design and assume the Achievement this is the way the first "Coat of Arms" came into existence and is still a legal way to gain them.

Where did you come by that particular legal nugget...? My understanding was that, technically, apart from inheriting them, they could only be granted by the Crown or the College of Arms or otherwise be acknowledged by the College (eg by prescription). The other problem would be finding out if the design has already been used: even the College of Arms, although no doubt extensive, doesn't have a comprehensive record of all of the arms ever used (in England and Wales).

Of course, "legal" is a bit ambiguous here (at the risk of repeating a previous post of mine). While technically correct that it's illegal to assume arms to which you're not entitled, in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, it's neither a criminal nor civil offence, but a chivalric offence - and the Court of Chivalry hasn't existed since 1737, in part precisely because it lacked comprehensive records and was open to challenge (except for one case in the 1950s, which today would have been covered by modern legislation). Certainly, the legal basis on which to challenge a private individual's use of arms is today as good as non-existent, which undermines the notion of a "right" - rights are worthless if unenforceable, however much you've spent with the College of Arms or however nice that parchment looks.

The coats of arms used by local authorities are interesting in that respect - although they have to be granted by the College of Arms, they're also protected legally by local government legislation in the 1990s, so strongly suggesting that a grant from the College of Arms isn't enough to enforce their legal right. There was a case not too long ago in Kent where a local authority was forced to change their arms because they'd wrongfully "inherited" them from a previous authority that no longer exists - even the local football team had to change their shirts because of that.
ESSEX Bonnett Burrows Clow (or Clough) Crampin Cressell Deacon Everett Heckford Humphries Missen Midson Pask Richmond Redgewell Tansley Tyler Whiting Wisby
SUFFOLK Brett Byford Chapman Churchyard Clow Coe Dearsley/Derisly Dous Hawes Mutimer Nunn Ransome Raw/Rolllinson Smith (Haverhill) Stollery Stringer Wallis Nunn NOTTS Hook Mills Pollicott
ENGLAND Parchment


Offline Guy Etchells

  • Deceased † Rest In Peace
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • ********
  • Posts: 4,632
    • View Profile
Re: Invented - but from where?
« Reply #13 on: Tuesday 28 October 14 09:04 GMT (UK) »

Where did you come by that particular legal nugget...? My understanding was that, technically, apart from inheriting them, they could only be granted by the Crown or the College of Arms or otherwise be acknowledged by the College (eg by prescription). The other problem would be finding out if the design has already been used: even the College of Arms, although no doubt extensive, doesn't have a comprehensive record of all of the arms ever used (in England and Wales).

Snip


Perhaps the most readily available proof that individuals could assume “Arms” comes in the form of the 16th century Visitations.
The Visitations were the means to enable Heralds to tour the country and record correctly assumed “Arms” and destroy “Arms” that were unlawfully usurped borne or taken by any person.

The simple fact that the heralds were to record correctly assumed “Arms” shows that at that time it was recognised that gentlemen could assume “Arms”

The simple modern explanation  is under Common Law if a person has held a right “from time immemorial” which currently means for the last 20 years or against the Crown 30 years they cannot be impeached.

In other words if a person has assumed unique “Arms” and is not challenged within 30 years Her Majesty the Queen may not challenge them and her Heralds are obliged to record them.

The case against the assumption of “Arms” seems to stem from a writ from Henry I to various sheriffs in 1418. The fact that the writ was a military one and limited to the specific instance has been ignored.

There is a good argument in favour of assumed “Arms” in the Ancestor (volume VII pages 113-144 : volume IX pages 214-224 : volume X pages 52-69)

Cheers
Guy
http://anguline.co.uk/Framland/index.htm   The site that gives you facts not promises!
http://burial-inscriptions.co.uk Tombstones & Monumental Inscriptions.

As we have gained from the past, we owe the future a debt, which we pay by sharing today.

Offline westdale

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 34
  • Seeking James GOWER Maldon 1823 !
    • View Profile
Re: Invented - but from where?
« Reply #14 on: Wednesday 04 May 16 21:56 BST (UK) »
@ThrelfallYorky
For a modern coat of arms see the British Computer Society.
Those items in the chief are pieces of computer memory :-)
Delanoy, Carter, Dalton in Cheshire; Simpson, Hoy and Gower(s) in Essex/London
Morgan St Davids, Liverpool and Anglesey; Williams Llangwstenin/Llandudno

Offline ThrelfallYorky

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 3,587
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Invented - but from where?
« Reply #15 on: Thursday 05 May 16 15:34 BST (UK) »
I've just looked that Society up - I could just about recognise the imagery depicted! I'm sure there must be some others out there that are  modern in their imagery, but I've never seen any.

I do enjoy seeing how people sport their (often spurious) coats of arms etc. One chap had a blazer badge made up, that must have cost him.
 It's much like the queries we so often see on here that say something like "I just know I am related to the Swat family of Tudor times, and am the rightful Duke of Swat, we have exactly the same surname, and just like them I was born in England, only in the south west rather than the North East. I have seen the Swat family tree, when i went round Swat Castle, now a National Trust Property, but for some reason I can't find any of my relatives on it, and would like someone to find me the link to my parents so I can claim the castle ...."
Threlfall (Southport), Isherwood (lancs & Canada), Newbould + Topliss(Derby), Keating & Cummins (Ireland + lancs), Fisher, Strong& Casson (all Cumberland) & Downie & Bowie, Linlithgow area Scotland . Also interested in Leigh& Burrows,(Lancashire) Griffiths (Shropshire & lancs), Leaver (Lancs/Yorks) & Anderson(Cumberland and very elusive)

Online KGarrad

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 26,082
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Invented - but from where?
« Reply #16 on: Thursday 05 May 16 15:48 BST (UK) »
In my defence, can I say:

My avatar was in use by John Garrad in the 1700's. He died without issue, and the arms no longer used! ;D ;D

Further - I only use it on RootsChat :D
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

Offline westdale

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 34
  • Seeking James GOWER Maldon 1823 !
    • View Profile
Re: Invented - but from where?
« Reply #17 on: Friday 06 May 16 14:33 BST (UK) »
Just for fun on the subject of modern items...
I was born in wales and used to debug computer systems for a living :-)
I think I obeyed the colour/metal rules ok ;-)
If I add a motto it will probably be the famous 'nil carborundum'
Delanoy, Carter, Dalton in Cheshire; Simpson, Hoy and Gower(s) in Essex/London
Morgan St Davids, Liverpool and Anglesey; Williams Llangwstenin/Llandudno