Author Topic: Latin translations for Irish Genealogy  (Read 3179 times)

Offline Bookbox

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Re: Latin translations for Irish Genealogy
« Reply #9 on: Tuesday 04 July 17 16:35 BST (UK) »
The wording starts with the priests name

The first word after the date is Idem, meaning ‘the same’, i.e. James O’Shea, the same cleric named in the previous entry.

21st   Idem baptizavi Joannem ex Jacobo Frawley de
Chapel Lane & Anna Duncan(?) die XX. natum; spons(oribus)
Joanne O’Neill & Alicia Finn


21st   I, the same, baptized John, of James Frawley of Chapel Lane and Ann Duncan(?), born on the 20th day; sponsored by John O’Neill and Alice Finn

ADDED - I believe the parish register looks more like Duncan than Dineen, despite what is recorded on the birth certificate.



Offline Bookbox

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Re: Latin translations for Irish Genealogy
« Reply #10 on: Tuesday 04 July 17 16:58 BST (UK) »
This would appear to be the marriage, in 1869 at Rathkeale. Ancestry's transcription of the civil registration index has Anne's surname as Drenneen, which looks even less likely.

http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000635009#page/109/mode/1up

Offline johneowens

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Re: Latin translations for Irish Genealogy
« Reply #11 on: Tuesday 04 July 17 18:44 BST (UK) »
I looked up the birth cert to see if they were married, I thought the XXnature might indicate that they weren't, the birth cert looks like they were but I don't see the marriage. Do you know if they were married?

Just noticed it written on the one above as well and the one after top of next page all with the same date.

Yes, the birth cert indicates they were married - in fact, at Rathkeale 6 August 1869. I have found Anne's maiden name variously written as Dineen, Denen, Deneen and so forth, so that's not a surprise.

The more I look at this I'm thinking this is a two-for-one baptism for sons John and James. So:

"???? baptizavi Iohannes or Joannes (John) e Jacabo (James) Frawley, do Chapel Lane & Anna Dineen di XX natem; Sponsors: Iohannes or Joannes (John) O'Neill & Alicia Finn."

So, although the syntax in a literal translation does not work, what about: "??? baptised John and James Frawley of Chapel Lane of Anna Dineen born the 20th (February). Sponsors: Joanne (John) O'Neill & Alicia Finn."

But what do you think the first word is?

If James was baptised at the same time as John, it would be several years after he was a born (in 1871) - and, I think there is a sister Mary who was baptised 6 August 1871. So, why was James not baptised in 1871? He may have died in 1871 - but would a priest have baptised a deceased child? However, may be one James died in 1871 and James and Anne had another James, who may have been the twin of John, both born 20 Feb 1871, and baptised the day after.

I would appreciate your thoughts.

Many thanks

Best

John
Owens-Swansea/Wallasey/Garston,L’pool
Jones-Erbistock/Widnes
Allen-Tetsworth/Hoole/Runcorn/St.Helens/Iowa/Kansas/Nebraska
Yieveley/Yevily/Everley/Heviley-Little Ness,Salop/Oldbury/St Helens/Garston,L'pool
Davies-Holywell,Garston,L'pool
Ithel-Bagilt,Mold
Fletcher-Rainhill/Widnes
Hughes-Marchwiel,Bangor-Is-Coed,Denbs
Thomas-Oswestry, Salop/Liverpool
Cole-Cliffe Peppard/Lyneham, Wilts
Frawley-Rathkeale, Co. Limerick
Conway-Coolanoran,Co.Limerick
Dinneen-Ballingarry,Co. Limerick

Offline Sinann

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Re: Latin translations for Irish Genealogy
« Reply #12 on: Tuesday 04 July 17 19:01 BST (UK) »
Have you read all the replies, only one child is baptised.
The wording starts with the priests name

The first word after the date is Idem, meaning ‘the same’, i.e. James O’Shea, the same cleric named in the previous entry.

21st   Idem baptizavi Joannem ex Jacobo Frawley de
Chapel Lane & Anna Duncan(?) die XX. natum; spons(oribus)
Joanne O’Neill & Alicia Finn


21st   I, the same, baptized John, of James Frawley of Chapel Lane and Ann Duncan(?), born on the 20th day; sponsored by John O’Neill and Alice Finn

ADDED - I believe the parish register looks more like Duncan than Dineen, despite what is recorded on the birth certificate.





Offline johneowens

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Re: Latin translations for Irish Genealogy
« Reply #13 on: Tuesday 04 July 17 19:23 BST (UK) »
Brilliant, Sinann. We will have to disagree on Duncan/Dineen. I cannot magnify the image enough but I thinking I'm seeing two "e"s before an "n" at the end of the name. I also think there is a flying dot on the "i", which is difficult to see. (Just returned from Rathkeale. I should have popped into the church!) The Chapel Lane abode also ties with James and Anne's 1869 marriage entry.

Many thanks.

Still, the mystery about James' birth date remains. Any thoughts on my competing theories?

Best

John

The wording starts with the priests name

The first word after the date is Idem, meaning ‘the same’, i.e. James O’Shea, the same cleric named in the previous entry.

21st   Idem baptizavi Joannem ex Jacobo Frawley de
Chapel Lane & Anna Duncan(?) die XX. natum; spons(oribus)
Joanne O’Neill & Alicia Finn


21st   I, the same, baptized John, of James Frawley of Chapel Lane and Ann Duncan(?), born on the 20th day; sponsored by John O’Neill and Alice Finn

ADDED - I believe the parish register looks more like Duncan than Dineen, despite what is recorded on the birth certificate.
Owens-Swansea/Wallasey/Garston,L’pool
Jones-Erbistock/Widnes
Allen-Tetsworth/Hoole/Runcorn/St.Helens/Iowa/Kansas/Nebraska
Yieveley/Yevily/Everley/Heviley-Little Ness,Salop/Oldbury/St Helens/Garston,L'pool
Davies-Holywell,Garston,L'pool
Ithel-Bagilt,Mold
Fletcher-Rainhill/Widnes
Hughes-Marchwiel,Bangor-Is-Coed,Denbs
Thomas-Oswestry, Salop/Liverpool
Cole-Cliffe Peppard/Lyneham, Wilts
Frawley-Rathkeale, Co. Limerick
Conway-Coolanoran,Co.Limerick
Dinneen-Ballingarry,Co. Limerick

Offline Bookbox

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Re: Latin translations for Irish Genealogy
« Reply #14 on: Tuesday 04 July 17 19:30 BST (UK) »
Still, the mystery about James' birth date remains. Any thoughts on my competing theories?

I'm afraid you have misread the Latin. It is not et Jacobo ('and James') but ex Jacobo (literally, 'out of James').

As Sinann has said, only one child is baptised. His name is John. The father is called James.

Offline johneowens

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Re: Latin translations for Irish Genealogy
« Reply #15 on: Tuesday 04 July 17 19:44 BST (UK) »
Oops. Yes, of course, Many thanks for pointing this out.

Best

John

Still, the mystery about James' birth date remains. Any thoughts on my competing theories?

I'm afraid you have misread the Latin. It is not et Jacobo ('and James') but ex Jacobo (literally, 'out of James').

As Sinann has said, only one child is baptised. His name is John. The father is called James.
Owens-Swansea/Wallasey/Garston,L’pool
Jones-Erbistock/Widnes
Allen-Tetsworth/Hoole/Runcorn/St.Helens/Iowa/Kansas/Nebraska
Yieveley/Yevily/Everley/Heviley-Little Ness,Salop/Oldbury/St Helens/Garston,L'pool
Davies-Holywell,Garston,L'pool
Ithel-Bagilt,Mold
Fletcher-Rainhill/Widnes
Hughes-Marchwiel,Bangor-Is-Coed,Denbs
Thomas-Oswestry, Salop/Liverpool
Cole-Cliffe Peppard/Lyneham, Wilts
Frawley-Rathkeale, Co. Limerick
Conway-Coolanoran,Co.Limerick
Dinneen-Ballingarry,Co. Limerick

Offline Wexflyer

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Re: Latin translations for Irish Genealogy
« Reply #16 on: Thursday 06 July 17 03:31 BST (UK) »
The first word in the entry is "Idem", Latin for the same, i.e. same date, same priest as in previous entry. The priest is named in the previous entry (first line). Oops, see Boombox already got there...!
BRENNANx2 Davidstown/Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens;CREAN Raheennaskeagh/Ballywalter;COSGRAVE Castlebridge?;CULLEN Lady's Island;CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook, Wic;DOYLE Clonee/Tombrack;FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown;HAYESx2 Walsheslough/Wex;McGILL Litter;MORRIS Forth Commons;PIERCE Ladys Island;POTTS Bennettstown;REDMOND Gerry; ROCHEx2 Wex; ROCHFORD Ballysampson/Ballyhit;SHERIDAN Moneydurtlow; SINNOTT Wex;SMYTH Gerry/Oulart;WALSH Kilrane/Wex; WHITE Tagoat area