Are we related?

[frankie-d]

My maternal Grandfather was born out of wedlock in 1873. I've good reason to believe that his father was Thomas Pringle who lived from 1843 to 1877. I've found someone who is descended from Thomas's brother and early this year arranged for him to have an autosomal test, Family Finder from ftdna. If the connection is correct we would be third cousins twice removed. ftdna's help pages showed an estimated 50% chance of matching 2 people who're related at this distance.

The ftdna results didn't show a match between us. I uploaded the results to gedmatch where the one to one comparison didn't give a match on the default settings. I reduced the minimum segment length from the default 7cM to 2cM and got the result shown below.

I'd have assumed that these matches were insignificant if it weren't for the line which says
"Estimated number of Generations to MCRA = 6.9" which I think would suggest that we are related.
I notice that gedmatch no longer gives this estimate in the one to one results. Maybe they decided it wasn't accurate enough.

I'd be interested to hear from anyone who has an opinion on whether the segment matches are what would be expected for 2 random people or if they suggest a connection.

[Ruskie]

Isn't it the Ydna test you need?

To prove your theory, wouldn't you need to test a direct male descendant of Thomas Pringle (or his brother) and compare results with a direct male descendant of your grandfather (eg you if you are a male) to see if there is a match.

I believe you can 'upgrade' and ask for further testing on the samples already supplied rather than redoing the tests. 

I'm sure others will be able to help you further.

[davidft]

1. You say the ftDNA results showed no connection between you. I notice on my matches they only appear to go back to 5th cousin and the other site says your match is 6.9 generations. If you read the FAQ on ftDNA I think it says on there that they can only do matching to about the fifth generation so this may be the answer.

2. If you search youtube or ftDNA's facebook page they have done several tutorials one of which is on autosomal DNA, which may help. There may be something on their website that gives a link

3. I have a confirmed match with someone (proved by paperwork \ records) who is my 4th cousin once removed. We have 26 CM's in common, so perhaps you 15CMs isn't enough for their tests to confirm a match. She is in America and I am in the UK.

[DevonCruwys]

Frankie

Third cousins twice removed would share the same amount of DNA as fourth cousins which works out at 0.195% on average. See:

http://www.isogg.org/wiki/Autosomal_DNA_statistics

Because of the random inheritance of autosomal DNA the actual amount shared between two cousins at this degree of relationship can vary considerably. As you say, according to FTDNA there is only a 50% chance that fourth cousins (and hence third cousins twice removed) would share enough DNA to show up as a match:

https://www.familytreedna.com/learn/autosomal-ancestry/universal-dna-matching/probability-relative-share-enough-dna-family-finder-detect/

The small segments are too small to rely on for matching purposes unless you want to get involved in doing complicated techniques like chromosome mapping which requires you to test lots of different relatives so that you can assign segments to specific ancestral couples:

http://www.isogg.org/wiki/Chromosome_mapping

If there is a genealogical relationship then in this particular case there is no genetic relationship. The absence of a match does not disprove the hypothesis that you are related. Is there another relation you can test, preferably someone who has a closer relationship.

[frankie-d]

Thanks for the replies.

 A yDNA test would be best but although I have a cousin who's male-line descended from my grandfather I can't find a male-line descendant from Thomas or his father, he had a grandson who died in 2010 but he seems not to have become a father.

I'll keep trying to find another descendant of Thomas who's closer and also try to get my head round chromosome mapping.

[hurworth]

If someone from the generation higher than you (your mother, or a sibling of hers) was able to be tested you'd have a better chance of confirming a connection or excluding it.

Failing that, if you had a willing sibling or cousin who would test it would help, as they'll have inherited genes from your grandfather which you haven't.

[Alexandrina]

Are your Pringles from Stow in the Scottish Borders?

There were many Pringles there. Thomas Pringle of Symington was one in the mid 1700's and there have be large numbers since. You might find a relative on the Pringle website at Buckholm.= Melrose Galashiels.

[frankie-d]

hurworth,
sorry I didn't reply at the time, don't think I got a notification. Unfortunately all my older relatives are dead, I got 2 of my cousins tested but they get even less of a match than me.

Alexandrina,
Thomas Pringle was born in Heriot, Midlothian and moved to Ireland where my granddad was born. His earliest known male line ancestor is his grandfather James who married in Fala and Soutra in 1780. No-one seems to have been able to trace James' birth which would have been c1748, so yes they are close to Stow.

My cousin's yDNA test gets 9 matches within 3 steps at 37 markers -

        Surname   Most Distant Ancestor
1   Forester   William Forrest b 1685 Prestonpans, East Lothian
1   Forester   William Forrest b 1685 Prestonpans, East Lothian
2   Forrest   James Forester b abt 1585 Edinburgh
2   Dick   
2   Dick           George W. Dick, b.c. 1835, Kentucky
2   Forester   William Forrest b 1685 Prestonpans, East Lothian
3   Forrest   Adam Forrest, b 1801, Leith, Midlothian
3   Forrest   
3   Dick           John Dick

although there are no Pringles the fact that they originate in the Lothians is encouraging, with the possibility that a son whose father had one of these surnames somehow became a Pringle.

I'll continue my search for a living Pringle descendant of this family who'd be prepared to be tested at my expense.

Frank   

[Alexandrina]

Frank,
All that I can advise is for you to find another Pringle on your line but further back in time than the cousin that you have had tested already because a break in the line can happen at any time.
Genetic genealogists call this NPE, non paternal line event which can mean adoption, step relationships, natural children back in time (illigit birth etc) name changes and many other breaches in the paternal line.  The majority of Pringles are from the Hoppringle lineages in Peebles and Melrose Roxburghshire and Selkirkshire regions in the Scottish Borders. Their Haplogroup is R M269 not I as in the case of the Forrest group.

Until you can positively confirm that the apparent break in the line is right throughout your Pringle lineage and not just on Cousin Pringle's line, you won't have the confirmation that you seek. So look for any Pringle relations very distant to Cousin Pringle and have them tested instead. Even Y12 will give you a good idea, and I think the charge for that is about $59?

Alexandrina Murray
Murray Clan DNA Research Project
Administrator.