Author Topic: Wife of Sir Oliver Tuite, 1st Baronet?  (Read 3369 times)

Offline reventlow

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Wife of Sir Oliver Tuite, 1st Baronet?
« on: Saturday 06 December 14 11:49 GMT (UK) »
Hi all,

I'm looking to find out the identity and parentage of the wife of Sir Oliver Tuite (1588-1642), who was created a Baronet on 1622-06-16. He was the son of John Tuite (1567-1597) and Margaret Nugent (daughter of Edward Nugent of Dysert).

The big and yet unsolved mystery is as follows: all sources mentioning Tuite's wife (versions of Burke's and Lodge's Peerage, for example) claim that Tuite's wife was Mabel Aylmer, daughter of Sir Gerald Aylmer, 1st Baronet and his wife Julia Nugent. The only problem is that many sources also say that there were only two children of this marriage: Sir Gerald's son and heir Andrew, and the daughter Julia, who married Sir Richard Barnewall. The strongest source for this latter statement is that the tomb of the Aylmer family, raised for Gerald and Julia, reads "Pray for the soul of dame Julia Nugent, daughter of Sir Christopher Nugent, Lord Baron Delvin, and wife to Sir Gerald Aylmer, Knight and Bart., by whom she had issue Andrew Alymer and Julia Alymer. She deceased the 10th of November, 1617". Thus no mention of other children besides Andrew and Julia.

Gerald had a first wife, daughter of Henry Travers, but all sources claim that there was no issue from this marriage.

What do I do next? Is it at all possible to find out the truth behind this? Could Mabel have been an estranged daughter, or a daughter of a relative; perhaps even of a later generation?

Would highly appreciate any help! :)
Best regards
Researching:

IRELAND: Tuite, Dunn/O'Duinn, Wells, Daly/Ó Dalaigh, Blake, Lynch, FitzGerald, O'More, Aylmer
SCOTLAND: Brown/Broun of Colstoun, Howet, Heriott
ENGLAND: Howard, Wells, Appleby, Pattridge

As well as West Indian, French, and Danish families.

Offline Flattybasher9

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Re: Wife of Sir Oliver Tuite, 1st Baronet?
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 06 December 14 12:33 GMT (UK) »
Have you looked at

"[S37] Mosley, Charles, editor. Burke's Peerage, Baronetage & Knightage, 107th edition, 3 volumes. Wilmington, Delaware, U.S.A.: Burke's Peerage (Genealogical Books) Ltd, 2003."

which is the current reference of source for the status of Mabel Aylmer, to see where that status came from in 2003.

Regards

Malky


Added :- 3. Col Hon Patrick Plunkett, mar. Mary Tuite, dau. of Sir Oliver Tuite, 1st Bt., of Sonagh, co. Westmeath, by his wife Mabel Aylmer, 1st dau. by his second wife of Sir Gerald Aylmer, 1st Bt., of Donadea, co. Kildare, and had issue

From :- http://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk/online/content/louth1541.htm

Offline reventlow

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Re: Wife of Sir Oliver Tuite, 1st Baronet?
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 06 December 14 12:53 GMT (UK) »
Hi Malky, thank you very much for your reply!

Yes, I believe I have seen the latest version of Burke's, after consultation with the editor of www.thepeerage.com, who also cites Mabel as daughter of Gerald and Julia with reference to Burke's. However it doesn't seem to shed more light on the matter, as I suspect one of the earlier sources must be erroneous somewhere, and that subsequent genealogies on the Aylmers have based it on this error.

Not claiming to know much about renaissance tombs of the Irish nobility, yet the inscription mentioning two children of the marriage seems to me to be of dire importance with regards to Mabel's identity. If she was indeed a legitimate daughter of the Aylmers, why was she not mentioned on the tomb inscription? Was she born after the creation of the tomb? Was she illegitimate? Or adopted, perhaps?

Best regards
Researching:

IRELAND: Tuite, Dunn/O'Duinn, Wells, Daly/Ó Dalaigh, Blake, Lynch, FitzGerald, O'More, Aylmer
SCOTLAND: Brown/Broun of Colstoun, Howet, Heriott
ENGLAND: Howard, Wells, Appleby, Pattridge

As well as West Indian, French, and Danish families.

Offline Flattybasher9

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Re: Wife of Sir Oliver Tuite, 1st Baronet?
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 06 December 14 14:51 GMT (UK) »
Have you read this from 1789.

 http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ebt/

Regards

Malky


Offline reventlow

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Re: Wife of Sir Oliver Tuite, 1st Baronet?
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 06 December 14 15:07 GMT (UK) »
Hi again Malky, thanks for the link!

I don't think I've read it, no - but then again this might be one of those early errors, (if it is indeed an error). None of the mentioned sources, including Burke's Peerage and similar compilations, mention any records whatsoever to back up the claim of Mabel's parentage… singularly frustrating. :( The only source I've seen so far that deserves to be called 'primary' is the tomb, and the information springing from that is quite confusing as well.

Best regards
Researching:

IRELAND: Tuite, Dunn/O'Duinn, Wells, Daly/Ó Dalaigh, Blake, Lynch, FitzGerald, O'More, Aylmer
SCOTLAND: Brown/Broun of Colstoun, Howet, Heriott
ENGLAND: Howard, Wells, Appleby, Pattridge

As well as West Indian, French, and Danish families.

Offline Flattybasher9

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Re: Wife of Sir Oliver Tuite, 1st Baronet?
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 06 December 14 16:01 GMT (UK) »
One thing to consider is the troubles at that time, and even within the family, there were splits. If the daughter had been involved with opposing sides of a split, she may have been disowned due to this. Another possibility is the moving of the tomb. At one point, the castle was attacked by family members. Was the tomb damaged at some point. So many possibilities. Every source I have come across states that the first wife had "no issue", but thats just history. How accurate is it?

Further reading at :-

http://archive.org/stream/annalsofwestmeat00wooduoft/annalsofwestmeat00wooduoft_djvu.txt

Pages 313 to 317 inclusive.

Regards


Malky

Offline reventlow

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Re: Wife of Sir Oliver Tuite, 1st Baronet?
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 06 December 14 17:06 GMT (UK) »
You're quite right about the possibility of some kind of dispute between the family members; as it happens so often even in our day, there is no reason to believe Irish nobility of the renaissance was in any way spared from it. Quite the contrary. If that was the case, was it enough reason for the Aylmers not to include Mabel's name, if she were their daughter, however? That seems to be the million-dollar-question…

Thinking about it, I remember there was indeed a dispute around this time and concerning this family, regarding the maternal grandfather of Julia Nugent, Gerald Fitzgerald, the 11th Earl Kildare. In his Wikipedia article, there is mention of his wife - incidentally also called Mabel - who "/.../ died in 1610, much troubled in her last years by a lawsuit brought by her grand-daughter Lettice, claiming that the Earl's will had been fraudulently altered." Lettice is also the 'alter ego' of Julia, the daughter of Gerald and Julia who married Barnewall; different sources seem to have different names for her, although as far as I can see they're always referring to the same daughter (i.e. the one who married Barnewall). In this case however I think the dispute might have involved a sister of Julia Nugent (the wife of Gerald); Lettice seems to be a name inherited in the family.

As does the name Mabel in these families, during this time. The 11th Earl's wife, as well as a sister of Julia Nugent bore the name; making it likely that if there was indeed a second daughter in the Aylmer family, she would have been a daughter of Julia and not of the first wife. I also don't really see any reason why the sources would be wrong about the lack of issue from the first marriage. On the other hand, if this is a case of 'wishful-thinking-genealogy' and that Mabel is a 'made-up' daughter of Gerald and Julia Aylmer, Mabel would have been a good choice of name, since its origin in the family lends the notion some credibility.
Researching:

IRELAND: Tuite, Dunn/O'Duinn, Wells, Daly/Ó Dalaigh, Blake, Lynch, FitzGerald, O'More, Aylmer
SCOTLAND: Brown/Broun of Colstoun, Howet, Heriott
ENGLAND: Howard, Wells, Appleby, Pattridge

As well as West Indian, French, and Danish families.

Offline reventlow

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Re: Wife of Sir Oliver Tuite, 1st Baronet?
« Reply #7 on: Friday 06 February 15 17:56 GMT (UK) »
Would appreciate any further help with this puzzle immensely!  ??? ::)
Researching:

IRELAND: Tuite, Dunn/O'Duinn, Wells, Daly/Ó Dalaigh, Blake, Lynch, FitzGerald, O'More, Aylmer
SCOTLAND: Brown/Broun of Colstoun, Howet, Heriott
ENGLAND: Howard, Wells, Appleby, Pattridge

As well as West Indian, French, and Danish families.

Offline hallmark

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Re: Wife of Sir Oliver Tuite, 1st Baronet?
« Reply #8 on: Friday 06 February 15 18:54 GMT (UK) »
"Pray for the soul of dame Julia Nugent, daughter of Sir Christopher Nugent, Lord Baron Delvin, and wife to Sir Gerald Aylmer, Knight and Bart., by whom she had issue Andrew Alymer and Julia Alymer. She deceased the 10th of November, 1617". ...but no mention of him, could he have had a 3rd wife??
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