Author Topic: Missing Marriage  (Read 6119 times)

Offline Mike Thw

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,020
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Missing Marriage
« on: Thursday 18 December 14 11:32 GMT (UK) »
John JERMAN (1839, Aberffraw) and Elizabeth unknown (1835, Llanfaelog) had their first child 1862.
In 1861 census there is no recorded children.

I've failed to find a Marriage record. Jerman appears to be spelt several different ways in the censuses (which doesn't help  :P)

Maybe someone with a fresh pair of eyes will be more successful. Please!
Merry Christmas  :D

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline KGarrad

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,952
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Missing Marriage
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 18 December 14 11:39 GMT (UK) »
I'm not seeing the couple on any census?
Do you have the references?

There are 2 potential marriages in Newtown?


I can see 8 John's, on the 1861 census, born 1839 (ish) in Aberffraw:
Griffiths
Hughes (x2)
Jones
Lloyd
Owen (x2)
Williams

Nothing that could be mistaken for Jerman! ;D
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline redtonyt

  • Deceased Rest In Peace
  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ********
  • Posts: 1,012
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Missing Marriage
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 18 December 14 11:45 GMT (UK) »

William JARMON on the 1861 census


Tony

Offline Mike Thw

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,020
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Missing Marriage
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 18 December 14 12:54 GMT (UK) »
Sorry people - my Mistake  :(

The husband is William Jerman not John

Apologies

(Don't try to do two things at one, Michael!!)

Offline dragonT

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 270
    • View Profile
Re: Missing Marriage
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 18 December 14 14:58 GMT (UK) »
The following seem to be children of William & Elizabeth, obtained from transcribed birth registrations:

Alice JARMAN dau of William and Elizabeth (maiden name) Jones - 8 Sep 1864, Llechylched
Mary JARMAN dau of William and Elizabeth Jones - 8 Sep 1866, Llechylched
Elizabeth JARMEN dau of William and Elizabeth Jones - 13 Jun 1871, Llechylched
John JARMEN son of William and Elizabeth Jones - 27 Apr 1863, Llechylched
William JARMEN son of William and Elizabeth Jones - 5 Nov 1861, Llechylched

David JARMAN son of William and Elizabeth (maiden name) Rowlands - 11 Apr 1875, Llechylched
Anne JERMAN dau of William and Elizabeth Rowlands - 8 Apr 1878, Llechylched

(The change in Elizabeth's maiden name suggests one surname is patronymic, she may be the daughter of John Rowlands or Rowland Jones - pure speculation I'm afraid).

I can't find the marriage but will look again. I may have found the birth registration of William (senior) and a number of death registrations:

William JERMON son of William and Mary (maiden name) Jones - 6 Nov 1838, Aberffraw

Ann JERMAN - 23 Oct 1936 age 58 at Ysgubor Esgob, Trewalchmai, dau of deceased farmer William Jerman
David JERMAN - 24 Aug 1931 age 56 at Bryn Cwr, Trewalchmai, farmer.Informant William Jerman, son
Elizabeth JERMAN - 29 Dec 1901 age 67 at Bwlcyn, Ceirchiog, wife of farmer William Jerman
John JERMAN - 13 Feb 1932 age 68 at 2 Pentre Canol, Holyhead Mountain, market gardener
William JERMAN - 9 Jan 1916 age 77 at Bwlcyn, Ceirchiog, farm labourer. Informant W. Jerman, son.
William JERMAN - 1 Aug 1923 age 61 at Llanfeirig, Ceirchiog farmer. Informant David Jerman, brother.
Anglesey - Thomas:
Bodedern, Heneglwys, Llanfair-yn-Neubwll.
Anglesey - Jones:
Llanfaethlu, Llanfair-yn-Neubwll, Rhoscolyn.
Anglesey - Parry:Llanfair-yn-Neubwll.
Anglesey - Lewis:Llanbadrig.
Anglesey - Willins & Tyran/Tyrer

Caernarvonshire - Evans and Lewis:Llanberis.

Denbighshire - Jenkins:Llandynan, Llantysilio, Cerrigydrudion.
Denbighshire - Jones:Rhos, Ruabon.
Denbighshire - Jones:Henllan

Flintshire - Mathews:Northop

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Mike Thw

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,020
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Missing Marriage
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 18 December 14 15:49 GMT (UK) »
WOW!!

 Thanks DragonT!! :D

Offline dragonT

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 270
    • View Profile
Re: Missing Marriage
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 18 December 14 17:15 GMT (UK) »
Found the marriage I think - it rarely works out this well!

William Williams (22, bachelor, labourer) of Pont faen, Llangadwaladr, son of William Jerman, weaver married Elizabeth Jones (25, spinster) of Tyddyn Hwrdd (Aberffraw), dau of John Rowland, labourer on 6 Nov 1860 at Aberffraw Church. Witnesses Lewis Jerman and Lewis Hughes. William and Elizabeth both signed by mark.

They married on William's birthday.
Anglesey - Thomas:
Bodedern, Heneglwys, Llanfair-yn-Neubwll.
Anglesey - Jones:
Llanfaethlu, Llanfair-yn-Neubwll, Rhoscolyn.
Anglesey - Parry:Llanfair-yn-Neubwll.
Anglesey - Lewis:Llanbadrig.
Anglesey - Willins & Tyran/Tyrer

Caernarvonshire - Evans and Lewis:Llanberis.

Denbighshire - Jenkins:Llandynan, Llantysilio, Cerrigydrudion.
Denbighshire - Jones:Rhos, Ruabon.
Denbighshire - Jones:Henllan

Flintshire - Mathews:Northop

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Mike Thw

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,020
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Missing Marriage
« Reply #7 on: Friday 19 December 14 08:53 GMT (UK) »
Wow, again!

Silly question, maybe, but do you think Elizabeth's father's full name was John Rowland Jones?

Mike

Later
I think in 1841 Elizabeth as recorded as Rowland with John as father.(ref: HO107/1358/6/28 p3 Llanfaelog, Anglesey)

Somewhat confusing  ??? Never come across it before.

Offline dragonT

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 270
    • View Profile
Re: Missing Marriage
« Reply #8 on: Friday 19 December 14 18:46 GMT (UK) »
Hi Mike,

Referring to Elizabeth daughter of John Rowland as Elizabeth Jones (Jones derives from John) is the normal old Welsh system of patronymic naming. (There are lots of helpful messages and links on RootsChat about this). In the same way William, the groom, is entered on the marriage certificate as William Williams, named patronymically after his father William Jerman. The marriage in 1860 is rather late to be seeing examples of patronymic names but is not unheard of in rural Anglesey. Looking at the register for Aberffraw marriages in 1860, most are conventional names but there are other examples of patronymic names - John Jones, son of John Richards was married 17 Jan and Thomas Williams, son of William Jarman (and older brother of William Jarman) was married 4 May.

As for the 1841 census of John Rowland and family, the record was written by the enumerator and gives the head of the house in full - John Rowland - and gives the first names of his wife and children followed by 'ditto' referring to Rowland. The family was probably illiterate, certainly Elizabeth Jones and William Williams were illiterate when they married - they signed by mark - so it would have been the enumerator who decided how the names were recorded.

What I find most interesting is that William (and Thomas his brother) have the patronymic Williams, rather than the 'family' name Jarman when they married, although they continued to be known as Jarman (Jarmen, Jerman etc) in later life. This name is not common on Anglesey and does not seem to be derived from a forename like most common Anglesey surnames. I have uncommon surnames among my own Anglesey ancestors - Tyran/Teyran/Tyrer and Willins/Wellins - (the same problem with various spellings!) and I'm interested in where such names come from, so I've researched Jarman a bit more.

As mentioned - William JERMON son of William and Mary (maiden name) Jones - 6 Nov 1838, Aberffraw - seems to be William's birth registration.
The census records for William (senior) and family for 1841 - 1871 show them in Aberffraw. William (senior) was born Amlwch (according to 1851 & 1871, he was also recorded as blind).
There is a baptism at Amlwch 5 April 1794 of William, son of Lewis GERMAINE (another spelling!), tailor, and his wife Lucy. Lewis Jerman, tailor, lives in Aberffraw in 1841 & 1851. He is aged 82, born Carnarvonshire according to the 1851 census. I haven't looked for Lewis in Carnarvonshire records.

William Jerman married three times, all at Aberffraw:
William Jerman/Jane Owen - 31 May 1819
William Jerman (widower)/Elizabeth Jones (widow) - 5 Mar 1825
William Jerman (widower)/Mary Jones - 26 Jan 1830 (One of the witnesses was Lewis Jerman by mark)

The following deaths occurred at Aberffraw:

William JARMEN 13 Aug 1871, age 77 at Church St., woollen weaver. Informant Ann Lloyd.
Lewis JARMAN 10 Sep 1856, age 87 at Chapel St., tailor. Informant Jane Evans.
Anne JERMAN 15 Nov 1847, age 75, wife of tailor Lewis Jerman who was the informant.
Mary JERMAN 21 Dec 1875, age 74 at Chapel St., widow of weaver William Jerman. Informant Ann Lloyd, daughter.

Regards, Idris



Anglesey - Thomas:
Bodedern, Heneglwys, Llanfair-yn-Neubwll.
Anglesey - Jones:
Llanfaethlu, Llanfair-yn-Neubwll, Rhoscolyn.
Anglesey - Parry:Llanfair-yn-Neubwll.
Anglesey - Lewis:Llanbadrig.
Anglesey - Willins & Tyran/Tyrer

Caernarvonshire - Evans and Lewis:Llanberis.

Denbighshire - Jenkins:Llandynan, Llantysilio, Cerrigydrudion.
Denbighshire - Jones:Rhos, Ruabon.
Denbighshire - Jones:Henllan

Flintshire - Mathews:Northop

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk