Seek british SPENCERs today! Any SPENCER cousins out there???

[Ruskie]

I expect the best way to make contact with living Spencers in England who may relate to your line, is to simply (possibly not the best choice of word) trace the family of these brothers back to England, see if there were any family who did not go to America, then trace their descendants to the present day.

If all of the brothers in this line went to America, you would have to go back to the father of the brothers to find his brothers, and then trace their male Spencer descendants. This is something which I'm sure you have already considered and may have tried. It would be a long hard slog, but it is the only way I can think of that you could ensure that you have traced the correct Spencer descendants. I have not examined the links provided on this thread to see if anyone has already attempted this.

A blanket request might get you the wrong Spencers or yield no results at all.

You may also consider starting a One Name Study (google GOONS) or offering free or reduced price DNA tests for Spencer males, as some YDNA projects do. If it is holders of the surname you are interested in, surely the DNA route is the way to go? Have you investigated this to see if there is an already existing Spencer project?

I have seen hugely varying occupations within males of the same family and though you say that you can see a pattern in yours, it may be that related Spencer males undertaking different occupations decided they were happy in England and preferred not to go to America (as opposed to getting 'left behind') - so I still think it may be disadvantageous to specify occupations. But that is just my thought on the matter.

PS. How do you come to the conclusion that your Spencer family are 15% of all the other un-related Spencer 'clans' ?

[bedfordshire boy]

I'm not taking offence. Why should I? Where on earth did you get that thought from? You never said Spencers were saints, I never said they weren't. I merely pointed out that in 1851 one of the male Spencer labourers in Beds was in prison. You can research this starting with Bedford goal records at http://apps.bedfordshire.gov.uk/grd/ to see if there was a propensity to lawlessness among the Spencers. I very much doubt that anyone will get feelings of insecurity from your sweeping unsubstantiated statements.

Don't forget that there was another from this particular Bedfordshire Spencer family who emigrated to America - Nicholas Spencer from Cople Beds, who went to Virginia c1659, and died in Cople, Westmoreland county in 1689.

Let's leave it there; I have some genealogical queries to try to answer. I wish you luck in your search for the descendants of those who missed the boat in 1630.

[Vienna Spencer]

thank you Ruskie, with re: to the suggestions. Yes we've tried tracing downwards, but too many missing records, so that got nowhere, hence my "attempt" to go from today, backwards. No offense meant by saying "left behind"--only meant they were still "remaining" in England, Not that they missed a better life, as, as you say, they may well have preferred their lovely British life!
As to the 15%, DNA studies show only about that percentage match our blood group of Spencers, & 85% are of other unrelated to us, or even each other, in all the various other Spencer-named families.
And, Bedfordshire boy, thank you also, for suggestions. Yes Nicholas Spencer, of Cople, I am aware of. Thanks again for all of your comments, esp. to gentleman Joe, for his most kind, helpful information, which I am finding most useful. Please no one trouble themselves over my post, any longer. Thanks, Vienna

[Ruskie]

As to the 15%, DNA studies show only about that percentage match our blood group of Spencers, & 85% are of other unrelated to us, or even each other, in all the various other Spencer-named families.

Of course this is only an estimate based on the number of those who have been tested so far (and would be only a miniscule number of all those holding the Spencer surname) and results would also depend on the markers tested. Results would have a strong American bias as they do for all surnames. Presumably you are aware that DNA testing is nowhere near as popular in the UK?

I think DNA testing would be the best route to follow however you might have a job on your hands to persuade UK Spencers to take a DNA test unless there are substantial discounts. I know that some Project Administrators attend the Who Do You Think You Are event in London where they try to recruit as many men with a particular surname as they can. I am not 100% sure, but I think that some may even provide free testing - this would certainly get you some interest. This may be something you and other American Spencers should consider.

As you say your Spencer lineage only accounts for a small proportion of those holding the Spencer surname, have you considered that they originally may have had another surname and for some reason adopted the surname Spencer?

[Vienna Spencer]

You are correct. The dna testing has already shown that all the groups except one DID have a former surname due fact Spencer meant a dispenser of goods and services, so if a guy, say, was a blacksmith, named John Smith, but changed careers to have,say, a General Store, and he found-out the meaning of the new(ish) word, "Spencer" to the English lexicon, he then thought, "Hmm, that word describes what I do, now, so I'm going to change my last name to that now,as I'm no longer a blacksmith". And this went on all over England, as, say, a Mr.Green, no longer living near the Village green, now was a Sutler, providing "goods and services" to the army, selling provisions, also changed his name to that of Spencer. Same for many of the pursers/stewards, even for minor Lords, so one ends-up with hundreds of new "Spencer" families, who formerly were Coopers,Greens,Stewards,Smiths,etc.etc. Only one group was not told they had a former surname, as they originated it. So yes I am aware of the dna potential and that would be a key way to clarify who is blood related to my Spencer group and who is not, and in fact was one of the things I would event-ally recommend to someone who might contact me, so thanks for your suggestion.
And yes I do realize the percentages of each group of Spencers would change according to how many people participate, but it's also interesting that the percentages have held steady even as the number of participants
kept increasing. It's too bad if England has an outlook against dna testing, as it is a wonderful tool that can resolve many issues, including to whom one belongs blood-wise, as well as link one to others who often have papers that assist in extending one's lines back further in time. Well, we shall see what time and study brings to all of us. Thanks for the thoughtful words. Take Care, Vienna

[Ruskie]

It's too bad if England has an outlook against dna testing, as it is a wonderful tool that can resolve many issues, including to whom one belongs blood-wise, as well as link one to others who often have papers that assist in extending one's lines back further in time.

I don't think English are against DNA testing, but they aren't quite as driven to find their roots as Americans seem to be, possibly due to the fact that they are an old country and already aware of their origins and surrounded by history, whereas America is a "new" country. Dare I speculate also that for some reason many of them are hoping for a gateway ancestor who leads to Royalty or the rich and famous. 

I'm not sure I necessarily agree that others often have papers related to ancient families - I think it is exceptionally lucky for any documentation to survive from hundreds of years ago, and even more rare for them to be in private hands. Some may survive in private collections and in archives etc, but in general there would only have been a paper trail for (some of) the well to do and others would not have a mention anywhere prior to church records. I think the chance of a Spencer ancestor contacting you and you saying, "oh, it just so happens I know a Spencer descendant who has a document from 1364 proving that your ancestor Wm Spencer owned land in Bedford and married Jane Smith in 1320", would be virtually nil.  And the further back you go the less there was/is.

But I agree with you that DNA testing would be extremely useful in this search, and in fact may be the only way to proceed.

[smudwhisk]

The dna testing has already shown that all the groups except one DID have a former surname due fact Spencer meant a dispenser of goods and services, so if a guy, say, was a blacksmith, named John Smith, but changed careers to have,say, a General Store, and he found-out the meaning of the new(ish) word, "Spencer" to the English lexicon, he then thought, "Hmm, that word describes what I do, now, so I'm going to change my last name to that now,as I'm no longer a blacksmith". And this went on all over England, as, say, a Mr.Green, no longer living near the Village green, now was a Sutler, providing "goods and services" to the army, selling provisions, also changed his name to that of Spencer. Same for many of the pursers/stewards, even for minor Lords, so one ends-up with hundreds of new "Spencer" families, who formerly were Coopers,Greens,Stewards,Smiths,etc.etc. Only one group was not told they had a former surname, as they originated it.

Yes that did happen but only really in the early days when surnames began to be adopted in the early medieval period.  It is far, far less likely at the time period when most written records begin for most families, namely the 1500s and the advent of parish registers.  In 16 years of researching I have only come across a few families who have changed their surnames over the course of a few generations, other than due to illegitimacy when the adopted step father's surnames or some members of the upper classes changed them when they inherited from a distant relative, and these were not profession related.   I would definitely not get into the mind set that any surname change due to profession or residence change occurred regularly during the lifetime of most written records in England, because it will be very misleading.  Yes surnames were changed but more often due to the lack of literacy even amongst the parish clerks.  I have several examples of this in my own research.

As Ruskie says, your most likely chance of finding a link back to England will be through DNA testing and if you're very lucky you may find a match with someone in the UK that helps, albeit the link could well be quite a few generations back. 

Yes there is a reluctance on the part of many of us in the UK to consider DNA testing.  Personally I cannot see it helping much in breaking down any of my high brickwalls because they are so many generations back already so tests such as the Family Finder test are not going to help because the information from the company admits that it will only cover the generations I already know for many lines.  Its also I'm afraid worth bearing in mind that as much of the genealogical DNA testing market is dominated by companies based in the USA, this will also be a contributory factor.  Many in the UK are reluctant for sensitive information of any sort, and DNA testing is that, to be held overseas whether it be in other parts of Europe, the USA or Asia, particularly because of differing levels of security and privacy in other countries.  There are some companies that provide such services in the UK but they are smaller and generally more expensive.  Unfortunately I don't seem the situation improving much in the future.  For that matter, and a recent thread has highlighted this, many of us are reluctant for even anonymised sensitive information to be made available to third parties by our authorities, so its not really surprising in some ways there is a reluctance to embrace DNA testing.

[joboy]

I must agree with smudwhisk in much of what is she has said in #24 and would add that I have run the full gamut of DNA testing of both maternal and paternal lineage at no small cost and the result was as much as I could expect.
The final analysis in both cases was that they originate from Germanic peoples with North West region of origin and my Family Finder 'Pie Chart' shows that 95.56% are limited to Western European and Orkney's and the remaining 4.44% to the Near East.
What research I have done into my own direct line fizzles out around 1738 and I have spent many years trying to find out why and I can only think that there was a change of name just prior to that and name changes are often thrust upon us by people (clergy?) who wrote what they heard from uneducated people at any event (birth,match and despatch).
I am reasonably sure that the line was limited to Middlesex.
The next thing is that my surname is unusual and it's origins are old English that means either a passage between two properties,an alley or a fork in the road ... and searching these should yield some reasonable idea of my surname.
Joe

[smudwhisk]

As someone whose most recent ancestors, excluding myself, were all born in London, I can sympathise with joboy's problem.  I have several lines that hit brickwalls in the 1700s or late 1600s which is probably the time the families moved into London.  Without any documentation as to where they originated it is albut impossible to trace them further back unless you get lucky.  One line I've been very lucky on because the surname is unusual and we managed to find that the family had moved to London from Harwich.  Others just stop abruptly, they could have migrated from absolutely anyway.  London has always attracted people into the city for work and opportunities and unfortunately the paper trail they left, or more lack of, doesn't help.  It also applies to other large cities too.  We've been most successfully tracing backwards with one of my grandmother's family but that is because all of her ancestors moved into London from various parts of the country in the 1800s and therefore their birthplaces show up in the census.  While some of her ancestors did move about the country before that time, the vast majority have been traceable where records exist.  However, with issues in gaps in parish records varying across the country, some lines come to an abrupt stop at the point the parish registers start and some of these have been in the early 1700s.  We've been helped on a few lines because they left Wills which have helped us piece together the family a few generations back further but generally such issues end any possibility of research.  That said, in 16 years of researching we've been lucky with what we have been able to trace.

As for genealogical DNA testing, I know people both in the UK and overseas who have taken various tests with mixed results.  A 7th cousin once removed of mine (and DNA testing wouldn't have helped prove this line, the paper trail has) did the Family Finder DNA test along with a 4th cousin twice removed of hers (who isn't related to me).  The test results stated they could not possibly be related and the president of the company was adamant the results were correct.  The repercusions of this went on for some time because her cousin was adamant the problem was on her side of the family and wouldn't even consider it could be on his in spite of the fact the most likely generation where there could have been a problem was on his side as he descended from the eldest child of a "shot-gun" marriage.  Eventually it died down but my friend wished she'd never bothered to test and to date has never found any connections that have helped her research.  So its worth bearing in mind taking a genealogical DNA test may not have the desired results and may open a whole can of worms.

And even if you get lucky and find a match with someone that shares the same surname, or possibly even a different surname, they may be stuck at the same period as yourself and not have been able to trace back far enough to confirm who the direct ancestor may be.