Seek british SPENCERs today! Any SPENCER cousins out there???

[jaywit]

Changing surname has been mentioned but how do you overcome a brick wall I had for many years?

I had John A born late 1700s, no trace of his baptism anywhere near where he said he was born.

Eventually I discovered he was born John B an illegitimate child, his mother married a Mr A a few months after his birth and he took Mr A's surname. There is no way of proving Mr A was his father, it could have been anyone, so what use would there be in chasing the A surname?

If you look at the many times a woman was pregnant at the time of her marriage how do you know the man she married was the father of the child?

I have to agree with many other posters that here in the UK we don't have as much faith in DNA testing as Americans do. I also agree with the reasons, we don't feel the need to prove where our ancestors came from and who they were or were not related to and the cost it is relatively ( when you compare with the cost of obtaining certificates, parish records etc. ) expensive.

Having said that someone I know who was born illegitimately and porkies were told by his mother about who his father was would desperately like to prove the man he knows in his own mind was his father was. Problem is the man's descendants from his marriage won't agree to be tested.

DNA in my mind is a double edged sword. You don't always get the results you want.

[Ruskie]

I agree that DNA testing can give varying results. I think where it is of most value is in cases such as the one Jaywit cites, where illegitimacy has occurred and proof is required of parentage. The problem lies in finding direct ancestors and getting all parties to agree to a test.

My husband has one of the most common names in the UK, and there is an active US based surname project to support it. His ancestors who bear that surname, which I have managed to trace, have had many sons, but he does not have a single DNA match.

Smudwhisk raises some very good points regarding surnames - very realistic and grounded.

[smudwhisk]

Smudwhisk raises some very good points regarding surnames - very realistic and grounded.

Thank you Ruskie.

[Ruskie]

(I would have elaborated further but I was using my ipad at the time and find it difficult to type on.  )

[chempat]

I was almost going to admit a Spencer in my ancestors, but, unfortunately Mr Spencer died 2 years before the birth, and his poor widow adopted a less salubrious lifestyle.
My cousin, about 40 years ago, researched the family, but missed the death of the 'Father', in blissful ignorance.

[Vienna Spencer]

I agree with all of you. Yes dna results can open cans of worms, and may not help you go further back, but also the reverse is true as well, and I've seen that occur,too. As to anonymity the U.S. companies- and esp. w/whom I'm familiar, i.e.-FamilyTreeDNA.com ...they do Not "store" any dna samples, and all are given "numbered" accounts, no names what-so-ever of the "giver" of the dna is recorded anywhere---one only shows the furthest back connection one knows---so as to "identify" that Line you descend from (such as:
"William Spencer, b. 1801, Egg Harbor, New Jersey, m. Susan Gilbralter" ,or some such statement). Also for the y-line dna (genetic) surname "marker" that only males carry, that's tested, That's ALL that's tested--ie- that's the oNLY part of the dna that is tested, to get the "surname" results. Then rest of dna left after the test is destroyed. So it's pretty darned secure--as nothing is stored. And they don't sell info or any type of thing to ANY 3rd parties.
But as you say, one Could possibly find-out about a "non-paternity" event in one's line, but it's Fairly rare (it does occur, but being what the penalties in the past for women who strayed, were, it's not all that common).
So is a useful tool for some. One lad I know who had been adopted at birth, but knew his birth father's last name was Spencer, did the Spencer group dna test via the familytreedna.com 's SHGS (Spencer Historical & Genealogical Society)'s (www.myshgs.org) group rate test and DID Confirm his birth father WAS that Spencer man, and Did find out he belonged to the 4brothers Spencer group, out of Beds.c.1630 to America.
Other Spencer friends I had, who were NOT Of my particular Spencer group also took the same test via the route listed above, and they too found with Whom they belonged (other Spencer groups), but ALSO each of those un-related Spencers (either to me, or to others) were told What last Name THEIR Spencer clan had HAD before chaining TO that of Spencer generations or centuries before (in that name-changing I spoke of for the Spencer name as it related to a new position in life, that of a dispenser of goods/services). So THIS is the REASON i just Happen to know that THAT can and does occur, and did, with regards to the Spencer surname, not very often for any other surnames---but it Did occur in England, all over the place with the Spencer name, due many changing their careers and Wanted their last name to Reflect their new elevated position in society. It's sort of a unique thing that occurred because of the meaning of that word. So it's only due some of my un-related Spencer friends of mine, Telling me what They were told once their dna results came-in, that I became aware of this. It was NEVER published, nothing is told to the public of ANY of this- and in fact when i TRIED to post something on Ancestry.com on the Spencer posting boards, the wife of the SHGS's president at the time, got VERY Upset that I would publish any kind of Truth ABOUT the dna testing- as she did not want it known that most of the Spencers were NOT Spencers until a name change somewhere back in time. I don't see how it's any big deal---as ALL Families are iNTERESTING, their stories fascinating,
their People of WORTH, but a lot of people, apparently didn't want any kind of "truth" told, as it would maybe DIScourage folks from taking the dna test. Ok, that I can understand, as it would impact "sales", and also, I guess people Could become upset if they were told that, say, back 500 yrs ago, in the 1400s before you had the Spencer surname, you were, say, a "Cooper", uh, I guess that would be a problem, for some?!! Anyway there is what I know, but I still say that taking a dna test CAN often give one some valid information, as to relationships (folk have found close cousins this way, they didn't even Know of--as again, no paper trail- but when they compared their parents, grandparents, etc known info, they Found the link by talking, once they knew they WERE blood connected), and also dna can confirm or negate things you believe about your line, & show you IF you are on the wrong (or right) track in your sleuthing. So I say if there IS a "tool" to be used,why not give it a try? It might help!

[chempat]

Vienna,

I think that what you have posted is very interesting, but perhaps not in the way that you originally intended.

Also, there is only one of you putting your side of the argument for dna testing and the use of dna in the Spencer research.

So any discussion can look like unfair 'bullying' from us.

But you leave yourself wide open to us picking up on your statements.

e.g. 'on the Spencer posting boards, the wife of the SHGS's president at the time, got VERY Upset that I would publish any kind of Truth'

Sorry, do not know if this is my English sense of humour but the use of 'VERY Upset' and 'Truth' and people being concerned over their surnames as to what their ancestors were or were not called I just think along the lines of 'You cannot be serious'.

Unfortunately when you say that all stories are of worth, then that just comes across as emphasising that some are more of worth than others.

I think you also suggest that it may not be you that gets upset, but others may not appreciate being told e.g.that originally they were Coopers not Spensers - by associating yourself in any way with people of those type of views you are again allowing yourself to be mocked.

I do not want to criticise, I love an open debate, so please do not worry about our funny English ways, and I hope that through the years to come Spencers will notice your post and contact you.

[bedfordshire boy]

Can you give us specific examples of when and where these many people changed their name to Spencer to reflect their new job.

I can tell you from first hand experience that no "Cooper" would even consider changing his name to Spencer. Not upset, just joking!!

David Cooper

[jaywit]

Vienna Have you studied parish records from small rural communities in England?  I suspect not because if you had you would realise that in many cases the woman was pregnant, sometimes almost at the point of giving birth at the time of her marriage.

It was not uncommon. why did this happen?  Sometimes the man's family wanted to ensure their son's possible wife was fertile, sometimes the agricultural labourer who was not entitled to take any time off apart from Christmas Day just could not find time and money to marry straight away.

Also you would see that illegitimate births were more common than you might expect.

Again I think some Americans have this obsession with finding their European ancestors and to find English ancestors way back is something of a status symbol to them.

Even us who live in England often find it difficult to go back before the 18th century and we just don't have that obsession.

We do tend to have suspicions of authorities holding our DNA details, I know in the future this could become the norm but at the moment it is only people who have been arrested who have their DNA held.

You view is not the norm for English family history researchers and by asking on a forum based in England you will get our views.