Author Topic: John Bowey/Bowie Hardy b.1828  (Read 6143 times)

Offline delicatelines

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John Bowey/Bowie Hardy b.1828
« on: Monday 29 December 14 00:03 GMT (UK) »
Hi everyone,

I'm having some trouble finding information on my 3x g-grandfather and his ancestors, John Bowey (sometimes splled Bowie) Hardy.

I've found a baptism record for 1828 with his exact name, with the place as St Nicholas in Newcastle, mother listed as Margaret Hardy (or Margaretta, depending on which website used!).

I've also found his marriage in 1846 to Mary Ann Oliver, and the census records from 1851 onwards, including what I believe to be details of his probate record. These all have him living in Cramlington, and working as a butcher. However, I'm having real difficulties in tracing either a 1841 census for him (bearing in mind rounding of ages) or any other information about his parents or siblings etc.

I'm still quite new to this so may be missing something really obvious, so any help would be most appreciated :)

Thanks,

Frances
Northumberland - Hardy, Dormand, Oliver, Dobinson, Gilchrist, Stephenson
Middlesex - Sibley, Stapleton, Nutley, Mumford, Fellows
Shropshire - Smith
Cambridgeshire - Pratt, Grounds
Hertfordshire - Hipgrave, Lake, Primmett, Sale, Squire

Online CaroleW

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Re: John Bowey/Bowie Hardy b.1828
« Reply #1 on: Monday 29 December 14 00:06 GMT (UK) »
Hi

His mother may have married pre-1841 and he may be entered under her new surname
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Carlin (Ireland & Liverpool) Doughty & Wright (Liverpool) Dick & Park (Scotland & Liverpool)

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Re: John Bowey/Bowie Hardy b.1828
« Reply #2 on: Monday 29 December 14 00:14 GMT (UK) »
Outside possibility he is the 13yr old indexed as John Fardy.  He is a male servant so not with parents

HO107 Piece 828 Book 15  living in Alwinton - no folio or page number given
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Carlin (Ireland & Liverpool) Doughty & Wright (Liverpool) Dick & Park (Scotland & Liverpool)

Offline chempat

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Re: John Bowey/Bowie Hardy b.1828
« Reply #3 on: Monday 29 December 14 08:09 GMT (UK) »
What address was he living at on the marriage certificate?


Offline delicatelines

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Re: John Bowey/Bowie Hardy b.1828
« Reply #4 on: Monday 29 December 14 17:02 GMT (UK) »
Outside possibility he is the 13yr old indexed as John Fardy.  He is a male servant so not with parents

HO107 Piece 828 Book 15  living in Alwinton - no folio or page number given

Yes, that could be a possibility - hadn't spotted that. Annoying if it is him as I still have no idea on his parents!

What address was he living at on the marriage certificate?

I've not got a marriage certificate, but I have considered ordering one. Do you know what kind of information a certificate issued at this time would have?

Thanks both for your help :)
Northumberland - Hardy, Dormand, Oliver, Dobinson, Gilchrist, Stephenson
Middlesex - Sibley, Stapleton, Nutley, Mumford, Fellows
Shropshire - Smith
Cambridgeshire - Pratt, Grounds
Hertfordshire - Hipgrave, Lake, Primmett, Sale, Squire

Online CaroleW

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Re: John Bowey/Bowie Hardy b.1828
« Reply #5 on: Monday 29 December 14 17:37 GMT (UK) »
As you already know he was illegitimate, the marriage cert should not show a fathers name and it doesn't.  https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NP1L-GQ6

See this short transcript on FS.  Mary's father is shown but not John's.   

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N65C-5TC

The witnesses may be siblings of either - or no relation at all. 

Being realistic - it's difficult to make a case for buying his marriage cert as I don't think it will help you
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Carlin (Ireland & Liverpool) Doughty & Wright (Liverpool) Dick & Park (Scotland & Liverpool)

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Re: John Bowey/Bowie Hardy b.1828
« Reply #6 on: Monday 29 December 14 17:56 GMT (UK) »
As you already know he was illegitimate, the marriage cert should not show a fathers name and it doesn't.  https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NP1L-GQ6

See this short transcript on FS.  Mary's father is shown but not John's.   

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N65C-5TC

The witnesses may be siblings of either - or no relation at all. 

Being realistic - it's difficult to make a case for buying his marriage cert as I don't think it will help you

Thanks for this. I did know he was illegitimate and I've just located the original baptism record which definitely does not show a father either! I suppose that there's not really a lot else that can be done to trace Margaret and her family either. Thanks for your help anyway!
Northumberland - Hardy, Dormand, Oliver, Dobinson, Gilchrist, Stephenson
Middlesex - Sibley, Stapleton, Nutley, Mumford, Fellows
Shropshire - Smith
Cambridgeshire - Pratt, Grounds
Hertfordshire - Hipgrave, Lake, Primmett, Sale, Squire

Offline SelDen

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Re: John Bowey/Bowie Hardy b.1828
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 30 December 14 05:01 GMT (UK) »
Just to put forward a different view, if I were in your shoes I would definitely get the marriage certificate, or even better, order the film of All Saints' marriages through the LDS family history centres (I have assumed you are not within easy reach of Newcastle upon Tyne itself). See www.familysearch.org for how to set up an account and order on line. According to the link provided by Carole the film number is 847909.

Yes, there is a good chance that you will learn nothing new. But you might. The witnesses may be family members who could lead you to another snippet of information. The addresses might be helpful - you just never know until you see it. You might find that young as he is, your ancestor was a  widower when he married Mary Ann. If  you view the film of the register, there is a tiny chance that perhaps there is some info written there that is crossed out and so did not make it to the certificate you would get from the GRO. I have seen all sorts of notes in registers and those of us with illegitimate ancestors have to collect every scrap of info we can gather.

I accept that some have different views, but although I am relatively new to Rootschat I have been pottering away at my family history for some time and again, if I were in your shoes, I would make sure I had every certificate available for John and his mother. I understand that certs get expensive but it is so easy to go awry if you don't take care and document each step as far as possible. Death certs can also be helpful. An informant on a death certificate can be a clue to a family connection that you may not have been aware of.

It is cheaper to order certs through the General Register Office rather than through commercial sources - apologies if you already knew this. Here is the link
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

BTW, this link will tell you what you can find on the certs - you have to scroll down a bit
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/most_customers_want_to_know.asp#FamilyHistory

Ordering films of church registers through the LDS is the cheapest option of all, especially as you can pick up other family marriages, but it is slower. If you have a look at the on line  film catalogue for Newcastle upon Tyne, there is a film of Bastardy Bonds for Newcastle although from memory it is mostly maintenance orders. These name the mother, the reputed father, and the amount the latter was obliged to pay for his child. Only the tip of the iceberg in terms of illegitimate children, but you might strike it lucky and find some information. Unless the name Bowie has a connection through the mother's side, it may be an indication of the father - just something else to explore and test.

Good luck




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Re: John Bowey/Bowie Hardy b.1828
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 30 December 14 21:17 GMT (UK) »
Just to put forward a different view, if I were in your shoes I would definitely get the marriage certificate, or even better, order the film of All Saints' marriages through the LDS family history centres (I have assumed you are not within easy reach of Newcastle upon Tyne itself). See www.familysearch.org for how to set up an account and order on line. According to the link provided by Carole the film number is 847909.

Yes, there is a good chance that you will learn nothing new. But you might. The witnesses may be family members who could lead you to another snippet of information. The addresses might be helpful - you just never know until you see it. You might find that young as he is, your ancestor was a  widower when he married Mary Ann. If  you view the film of the register, there is a tiny chance that perhaps there is some info written there that is crossed out and so did not make it to the certificate you would get from the GRO. I have seen all sorts of notes in registers and those of us with illegitimate ancestors have to collect every scrap of info we can gather.

I accept that some have different views, but although I am relatively new to Rootschat I have been pottering away at my family history for some time and again, if I were in your shoes, I would make sure I had every certificate available for John and his mother. I understand that certs get expensive but it is so easy to go awry if you don't take care and document each step as far as possible. Death certs can also be helpful. An informant on a death certificate can be a clue to a family connection that you may not have been aware of.

It is cheaper to order certs through the General Register Office rather than through commercial sources - apologies if you already knew this. Here is the link
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

BTW, this link will tell you what you can find on the certs - you have to scroll down a bit
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/most_customers_want_to_know.asp#FamilyHistory

Ordering films of church registers through the LDS is the cheapest option of all, especially as you can pick up other family marriages, but it is slower. If you have a look at the on line  film catalogue for Newcastle upon Tyne, there is a film of Bastardy Bonds for Newcastle although from memory it is mostly maintenance orders. These name the mother, the reputed father, and the amount the latter was obliged to pay for his child. Only the tip of the iceberg in terms of illegitimate children, but you might strike it lucky and find some information. Unless the name Bowie has a connection through the mother's side, it may be an indication of the father - just something else to explore and test.

Good luck

Thanks for the tips. I'm not too far from Newcastle, but unfortunately don't often get the time to go up and have a search (I'm using the festive period to catch up on some much overdue research!).

I didn't know about the Bastardy Bonds - sounds very interesting, and worth a look! I did wonder that about Bowey/ie - as far as I can see that was the first time it appeared in the family; I certainly haven't seen it on Mary Ann's side.

As a side note, I did some searching on his mother, who is actually recorded as 'Margaretta' on the original baptism record that I located. There is a Margaretta Hardy baptised at the same church in 1804. I can't see the original record (it appears to be on the bottom of a page that has been cut off - frustrating!) I think it's likely that's her (right name, same spelling, and right age) but I have no other proof, just a hunch, and I'm not going to add her without anything further. I'm thinking that ordering some birth and marriage certificates and making some time to comb through the records may be useful in helping solve this mystery!

Frances
Northumberland - Hardy, Dormand, Oliver, Dobinson, Gilchrist, Stephenson
Middlesex - Sibley, Stapleton, Nutley, Mumford, Fellows
Shropshire - Smith
Cambridgeshire - Pratt, Grounds
Hertfordshire - Hipgrave, Lake, Primmett, Sale, Squire