Frederick Charles Castle of Southborough and Tunbridge Wells

[chempat]

Gordon's marriage - or abroad?

Marriages December quarter  1902  at Steyning
Frederick Thomas Coy   
 Adeline Helen M Kenny           
Gordon SINDEN        
Alice Maud M Wood           

[chempat]

Gordon is the only child with Frederick and Kate in 1881.

[chempat]

Gordon's wife:

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1897/31031_A100162-00976/370375?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fgst%3d-6&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

Adeline Helen Sinden born Kenny

 Adeline Helen Sinden 18th October 1940 ex Johannesburg South Africa

[Mabel Bagshawe]

You were asking where Kate was buried - she's with Frederick James Castle in Ladywell and Brockley Cemeteries, Lewisham

http://billiongraves.com/pages/record/Kate-Castle/2768135

[Smokey807]

To Mabel.........Thank you very much for the great information about the graves of Frederick Castle and his wife Kate. I copied the photos of their headstones and recorded the transcriptions, dates etc........excellent!!

To Chempat etc.....Thanks for the useful information about the Sinden children. No I could not find the 1911 census for Gordon that you say is strange.....please give me the details. Everything seems to be "strange" about this family so I am most interested in seeing what you found !

Regarding the question about whether or not Frederick James Castle is the same person as Frederick James Sinden. I agree that it is very tempting to conclude that they are the same person and I would like to conclude they are but there is some contradictory information that I cant reconcile as I have given below.Some information implies that they are one and the same man but some leaves more questions than answers.

1) Firstly there is the marriage record for Frederick James Castle to Kate in 1896, over 20 years after we have the children of Frederick James Sinden and Kate being born. So far no marriage record between Kate and Frederick James Sinden has been found (was there ever really a Frederic James Sinden born or was this an assumed name?

2) The burial record for Frederick and Kate are with the surname of Castle , not Sinden

3) Frederick James Castle as he is always referred to in electoral records of Southborough has him as a resident of Southborough from the year of his birth in 1824 until 1895. He was christened as Frederick James Castle. Frederick James Castle is the name that appears on all legal documents pertaining to his land development work in the Southborough and Tunbridge Wells area. There is never any mention of him as Frederick James Sinden.

4) All of the children born to Frederick James Sinden and Kate Sinden were christened with surnames of Sinden. If Mr Sinden as actually Mr Castle why the use of Sinden?

5) Something that might cause one to conclude that Frederick James Castle and Frederick James Sinden are the same person is that in the 1861 census at London Rd.Southborough Frederick James Castle was given as a "hop factor" and the census of 1871 in Paddington had Frederick Sinden, born 1831 Tonbridge with wife Kate and son Frederick with Frederick senior as a "retired hop merchant". But what explanation can be given for Frederick James Castle being recorded in the census as "Sinden" and not "Castle" (the names arnt even close in spelling or pronunciation)

7) It is interesting and strange that no census record for a Frederick James Castle is found after 1861. This does suggest that his name began to appear in the census of 1871 as "Sinden" and he is still given as "Sinden" in the 1891 census at Deptford London. What is he doing in London in 1891 when the electoral records and land development records all refer to him being in Southborough and Tunbridge Wells?

There is a land sale agreement of 1888 between Frederick James Castle and the Dorking Estate regarding his purchase of land for development, so he is using the name "Castle" then.

9) There is a record from the website of the Friends of Grosvenor Park about the Dorking Road development which states " Following the death of Frederick James Castle in 1897, 19 plots of land were left to his wife Kate Castle. In 1928 the empty plots of land were sold by Frederick Arthur Sinden, son of Kate Castle, to William Frederick and Alfred Huggett". So now we have a combination of Kate Castle and her son Frederick Arthur Sinden! Its a mystery to me why we keep getting a mixture of "Castle" and "Sinden" in all these different records.

Can someone suggest a plausible explanation as to the mixture of "Castle" and "Sinden" in all these records. I have to say this is the most confusing topic I have come across!!

[shirl100]

I think you need to seriously consider whether Frederick James Castle born about 1824 in Tunbridge is the same person as Frederick James Sinden born 1824 to 1831 or similar in Tunbridge.

I agree, a fresh start with this one from the beginning. Family trees can be notoriously incorrect, so go with what you can actually verify. Although if the gravestone record is correct it suggests that Frederick James Castle was born around 1840 and died 1912 (where was Frederick CASTLE in 1911) ? Might this be Frederick James Sinden? So who is the person recorded on the death registration in 1897 aged 73 but shown as Frederick James Castle, that name and year appears on that gravestone resource as "others buried here". That date also fits with the probate record you have for Frederick James Castle. Back to the drawing board I think.

Shirl

Shirl

[shirl100]

Here is another bit of information, a Frederic Castle was buried St Peter and St Paul's Tonbridge in the same grave as his father Lieut, C D Castle (1785 - 1825) and siblings

Charles Hall Castle 1817 - 1827
Emma Castle
William
Henry

This seems to be the family you were originally talking about.

Shirl

http://www.gravestonephotos.com/public/gravedetails.php?available=yes&fullname=Frederic%20Castle&grave=286913&personid=614021&db=286913&scrwidth=1600

[Smokey807]

Thank you for the burial record for Lieut. Charles Daniel Castle and his children. The dates and names and location of death/burial coincide with my information on the family. The Frederick Castle who you say was buried with his father will not however be the Frederick James Castle I am working it on. If in fact a Frederick was born there it would be a brother of Frederick James Castle.

The burial record for Frederick James Castle and wife Kate Castle at the Ladywell and Brockley cemeteries is a correct burial for him. The inscription on his stone says he was of Southborough and Brockley laid to rest May 16,1897 age 72 years (this makes him born 1825, which matches my information (1824?). The inscription for his wife has her laid to rest April 10,1912 age 71, making her born 1841. Her birth and death years match my records also. So there is no confusion as to where the two of them were  buried, when they were born and when they died. The probate record for Frederick James Castle had him dying May 15,1897 and that he was a resident of Brockley,Kent, so this matches the burial record and as I have stated before he was previously a land developer and resident of Southborough.

So the questions about his parents and siblings and he death of him and his wife are now answered to my satisfaction.

As I noted before I have a census record for Frederick James Sinden and his family 1871 at 54 Moscow Rd,Paddington (Frederick Sinden plus Kate plus son Frederick)and one for 1891 at Deptford,London (Frederick Sinden plus Kate plus sons Arthur F and Gordon). I could not find the 1881 census. Could someone take a look and let me know the details for 1881 if you find it. It would be interesting to see what surnames are being used at that time.

[chempat]

Ancestry has the family transcribed as Lindern in 1881, but a son (or two) missing.

1881 census
Frederic Lindern age 56 born Tunbridge, Kent, England
Parish Paddington
Street address 17 Monmouth Rd
No Occupation
Registration district:    Kensington  Sub registration district:    St John Paddington
Frederic Lindern    56
Kate Lindern    40  wife dressmaker
Gordon Lindern    7

Gordon Sinden initially states he is aged somewhere between 30 and 40, then claims 35, in 1911, and states No definite record for birthplace.

Have you ordered the marriage certificate for Kate Sinden, for further information?

I assumed the late marriage so that she would inherit what was rightfully hers, instead of a problem with the wrong surname.