Author Topic: Marion Woodburn - b. Ayr, Scotland, possibly 1819  (Read 26958 times)

Offline loobylooayr

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Re: Marion Woodburn - b. Ayr, Scotland, possibly 1819
« Reply #18 on: Wednesday 14 January 15 10:40 GMT (UK) »
A snowy morning here on the West Coast of Scotland. A perfect morning for strong coffee, buttered toast and family history research  :P

Hi Polly,
Just a few comments regarding your last post - then more new info !!!
Firstly regarding remarriage of a widow/ widower - in my personal FH experience and with helping others at Rootschat, I find that people often remarried very swiftly after the death of a partner, especially if there were young children. Widows needed the financial support, widowers needed a child-rearer and housekeeper.

Secondly, I understand your niggling doubt re. Marion Woodburn born 1819 to John Woodburn and Mary Brown  being your Marion. Indeed there could have been another 10 Marions born around that time whose births were not recorded on OPRs or the records are lost.
I am positive the Marion Woodburn aged 20 on the 1841 Census is your ancestor - there are not that many Marion Woodburns on the 1841 Census - in fact in the whole of Scotland there are only 3 Marion/Marian Woodburns and they all live in Kilmarnock . One is 45, one is 20 and one is 9.
There is also a Mirron Woodburn aged 9 at Ochiltree Ayrshire.
People's ages on the 1841 Census can be a bit out. Adults had been instructed to round their ages down to the nearest 0 or 5.  Some did. Some rounded up. Some ignored the instruction and gave their exact age. But you will find on that Census that most folk are ?0 years or ?5 years .

 Thirdly, phew.... your Marion actually may not have known exactly what age she was :-\ . People didn't have birth certificates to prove their age, they were working from a young age and birthdays would be no big deal. It is not unusual for a persons age to vary from record to record and on death records the info is always as good as the knowledge/memory of the person who provided it. 
On her death cert in 1908 her age is given as 92 meaning a birth in 1815/1816 (depending on time of year)
On her headstone her age is 90 meaning a birth in 1817/1818.
On the ship to Australia 1848 she is 27 meaning a birth of 1820/1821
On 1841 Census she is 20 ( but that could have been rounded down or up) meaning a birth in 1820/1821.
Marion called her first daughter Mary - there is a very good chance therefore her mother was a Mary - wish there was a birth record for this  :'(
Marion called her fourth son John Woodburn McEwin - the use of the surname Woodburn with this son would incline me to think that the forename John was his grandfather's name. She has not used it with 3 earlier sons and she didn't use it again.

Going to split the posts this is one huge reply ;D

Looby


Offline loobylooayr

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Re: Marion Woodburn - b. Ayr, Scotland, possibly 1819
« Reply #19 on: Wednesday 14 January 15 10:44 GMT (UK) »
 Back again
And last comment. Playing devil's advocate here  - regarding the death registration in NZ. Her father's occupation has been recorded as a weaver, his name .....Woodburn, mother unknown. So the informant didn't know Marion's father's forename or her mother's name. Why would he be 100% certain of her father's occupation? Yes maybe he did hear her speak of her father being a weaver. Or maybe he heard her speak of her first husband being a weaver  :-\
Out of curiosity this morning when I read your post I carried out an experiment ;D and asked my 2 sons (late teens/early 20s) what any of their great grandfathers did for a living. Out of 4 great-grandfathers my sons only ever met 2  and they died when they were under 10. The other 2 died before they were born.
My boys thought long and hard - and got 1 out the 4 correct.
They said my OHs paternal grandfather was a (very early) lorry driver and were correct. But then that was also occupation of their grandfather/g-uncles and my OH ( lorries run in the blood :D )
OHs Maternal grandfather (they knew him briefly) - they said might have been a soldier - wrong he was a baggage handler/cargo handler at an airport although he did serve in army WW2
My paternal grandfather (they knew him longest) they said was a trademan of some sort....maybe a joiner...wrong he was a railway guard all his life.
My maternal grandfather they said was maybe a miner.....coal mining was prolific here and although there were miners in wider family ....he worked in a factory.
Not scientific I know but it proves to me if my mother or inlaws died and my sons were informants they wouldn't have a clue!!

Hope you don't mind my ramblings Polly and apologies if you are already aware of the info I've given. I do have another piece of fresh info but will need to fill you in later as I need to go out now.

Looby

Offline IanB

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Re: Marion Woodburn - b. Ayr, Scotland, possibly 1819
« Reply #20 on: Wednesday 14 January 15 22:00 GMT (UK) »
I have been following this exchange with interest because my paternal grandmother was Elizabeth Woodburn (1869 - 1940). I have traced her ancestry back to William Woodburn and Isabel Hamilton, married at Loudon in 1727. The family were tenant farmers of Loudon Mains for several generations but later spread out all over Ayrshire, and then to Glasgow and Edinburgh. There are two Marion Woodburns in my tree but both died in infancy, one after the other. The fact that both were given the name of Marion suggests that there was a Marion that the parents wished to honour but I cannot say who that was.

A distant relative was clever enough to extract from Scots Origins all of the entries in which a Woodburn was listed and I have poured over these sheets to see whether I could help in this case. Not much joy I'm afraid but I do have a couple of observations which may assist, now or later:

Re siblings of Marion, assuming her parents were John Woodburn and Mary Brown: I could find none but I did find christenings of two other children of a Mary Brown. 28 Dec, 1824; John Woodburn; to Father: George Woodburn; Mother Mary Brown Reg. at Stonehouse. and 4 Oct, 1826 George Woodburn with the same parents. I could not find a marriage of this couple but perhaps they did not marry, possibly because marriage would have been unlawful if (father) John and (father) George were brothers. Pure speculation on my part.

I seems probable that John Woodburn and Janet Caldwell were the grandparents of young John (the visitor in 1851) through their son, David. However, the Janet Caldwell he was visiting would not seem to be the Janet Caldwell who was his grandmother because the ages do not match.

Not sure whether this was already noted, but there is a marriage of John Woodburn and Mary Brown on 20 June 1818 Reg. Kilmaurs.

I have a Margaret Borland on my tree somewhere but I cannot find her at the moment. I don't think she is of interest here but I will keep looking. Several Borlands married Woodburns.

I doubt that I have been of much help but you never know where additional information might lead. I shall continue to follow with interest.
Ian
Morrison, MacKay, MacCulloch, Sutherland, Dingwall, MacLeod, Donn, Calder,Blyth/Blythe; Baxter; Woodburn;Fleming;Hobkirk

Offline pollyhow

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Re: Marion Woodburn - b. Ayr, Scotland, possibly 1819
« Reply #21 on: Wednesday 14 January 15 23:02 GMT (UK) »
Hi Looby

Thanks for all the thought you are putting into this. That was an interesting experiment you did with your sons.8) You are quite right, of course. Not many young people are interested in their ancestors. Chances are Marion’s grandson was in that category as well, so his information is probably not that reliable.

I am feeling a bit more discouraged today.:'( Have spent a lot of time in ScotlandsPeople and wasted a lot of money getting nowhere. I did find one remote possibility for Marion’s father's death:

“1831 Aug 30
John Woodburn weaver in Greenholm son of William Woodburn weaver in Greenholm”

Very little to go by I know, but it was the closest I could find. No age mentioned or wife, only father and profession. Do you know if these registers usually mentioned a spouse if there was one??? I searched for a remarriage for Mary and saw there was a Mary Woodburn who married a John McAdam in 1834. I then paid for an image of that marriage – but it just said:

“16th March 1834
John McAdam & Mary Woodburn both in this Parish
(3 Sabbaths)”
(Many entries on the page had “Galston” put in front of the date)

I saw a John McAdam with wife Mary and five-year-old daughter Mary in the 1841 census. They lived in Dumbarton, but I noticed in the 1851 census that all three of them were born in Greenock, Renfrewshire, so that can’t have been the Mary Brown who married John Woodburn in 1818. She seems to have been centred in Ayrshire.

So it looks like it is back to square one again. I don’t know if I should waste more time studying John Woodburn who died in Greenholm in 1831. The information in the record just doesn’t give me enough to reassure me it is him.

I think you are right about that 1841 census record being the correct Marion. It could be a foundation stone to help build up a big picture. But at the moment that picture has so many gaps in it.

Strange to think you are having snow over there at the moment. Our weather here has been nice and warm. Too hot for me some days. We’re having a good summer.

Looking forward to finding out the fresh info you have.

Polly :)


Offline loobylooayr

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Re: Marion Woodburn - b. Ayr, Scotland, possibly 1819
« Reply #22 on: Thursday 15 January 15 00:03 GMT (UK) »
Hi IanB ,
I'm sure Polly will appreciate your input :)
The name Woodburn certainly has strong Ayrshire (Kilmarnock & Loudoun parish) connections.
How interesting that your ancestors farmed Loudoun Mains Farm. I know it well  :) as I fairly close by.

Like you I do wonder if all these Woodburns are connected, and it's interesting that you have found what appears to be 2 illegitimate births to a Mary Brown at Stonehouse, Lanarkshire.
This is actually getting complicated and interesting at the same time.

There are Woodburns in Stonehouse on 1841 Census and it may be worth looking at them.
However, just reminding myself and everyone else  :)we don't know for certain that Marion's mother was a Mary Brown or that her father was a John. All we have from her death cert is the her father was a Woodburn and he was a weaver.
The occupation could be right and then again the informant could easily have been wrong .

Dealing with the Stonehouse family briefly first - There are 3 births to a George Woodburn and Mary Brown over a 22 year period.
George 2 Dec 1803     John 28 Dec 1824      and  George 4 Oct 1826
This couple above may or may not have been married - the OPR may no longer exist.
I couldn't see this couple on Census 1841
I did see this however
King Street Stonehouse
BROWN       Margaret       F       65       Silk Winder        Outside Census County (1841)           
        WOODBURN       John       M       15       Silk Weaver        Lanarkshire           
        WOODBURN       James       M       8               Lanarkshire           
    
        
Unfortunately with 1841 no relationship is recorded so we don't know who this woman is to these 2 boys.

Keeping digging. I'll be back :P

Looby :)





Offline loobylooayr

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Re: Marion Woodburn - b. Ayr, Scotland, possibly 1819
« Reply #23 on: Thursday 15 January 15 00:38 GMT (UK) »
Hi Polly and also Ian

What we do know is that Marion Woodburn married Thomas McCulloch in 1845 at Kilmarnock

Thomas McCulloch in Morton Place and Marion Woodburn near Bonnyhill were proclaimed on the three preceding Sabbaths and were married this day by the Revd Mr Young.   

This interested me that Marion lived near Bonnyhill.
Bonnyhill appears to have been a cottage/farm/location between Crookedholm and Galston - a quiet backroad . It is a road I have walked several times in our summer. And next time I walk it you can bet I'll be looking for Cottage Inn/Bonnihill etc.   I found a reference to it here on this very interesting memoir/historical piece.

http://www.electricscotland.com/history/kilmarnock/part2c14.htm

The Woodburn family I noted earlier John and Lily/Lilias with children are at Cottage Inn which sits along this road. 2 properties along on the Census is the Paton family at Bonnihill  and 2 properties along from that is another Woodburn family !!
They live at Ralstonhill -which was and still is a farm.
     WOODBURN       George       M       60       Farmer                
     WOODBURN       Agnes       F       45                       
     WOODBURN       James       M       25                       
     WOODBURN       John       M       20                      
     WOODBURN       Janet       F       15                      
     WOODBURN       Agnes       F       15                      
     WOODBURN       Wm       M       14       Cloth Shop Apprentice                
     WOODBURN       Mary       F       13                   
     WOODBURN       Jean       F       11                      
     MOONEY       Mary       F       25       Female Servant                   
 All are Ayrshire born exexpt their servant who was born in Ireland.

Now is Marion connected to this family.
I tend to think her main connection is with the John & Lily family.
Ralston Hill had been a farm farmed by the Woodburns for some time. I would have thought when Marion married if she was related to George & Agnes that the OPR  would have read Marion Woodburn from Ralston Hill   but I could be wrong  :-\
The Woodburns are still farming Ralston Hill on 1851 Census.

So what are your feelings now Polly? :-\

Looby :)

PS. Regarding your search for Mary Brown/Woodburn remarrying .....she would not have remarried using the name Woodburn . In Scotland she would have remarried under her maiden name/own name. Women were not obliged to take their husbands names in Scotland. You will sometimes see married women on Census returns with their maiden name and their hubby with his. Also many women reverted on widowhood to using their original maiden name.

Offline IanB

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Re: Marion Woodburn - b. Ayr, Scotland, possibly 1819
« Reply #24 on: Thursday 15 January 15 01:57 GMT (UK) »
A couple of thoughts:

Was there more than one Mary Brown? Both names are quite common. Logically, the Mary Brown who had  George Woodburn in 1803 seems unlikely to be the Mary Brown who was the mother of Marion. And not highly probable that she was the mother of John 1824 and George 1826. Although, child-bearing over an extended period was fairly common - my grandfather was older than two of his uncles, for example.

How detailed were the marriage certificates in N.Z.? Is there a certificate for the marriage of Andrew McEwin and Marion Woodburn? Did it give their parents' names?, as did post-1855 Scottish certificates.

Ian
Morrison, MacKay, MacCulloch, Sutherland, Dingwall, MacLeod, Donn, Calder,Blyth/Blythe; Baxter; Woodburn;Fleming;Hobkirk

Offline pollyhow

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Re: Marion Woodburn - b. Ayr, Scotland, possibly 1819
« Reply #25 on: Thursday 15 January 15 03:30 GMT (UK) »
Hi Looby and Ian

I’m so impressed with how you are both trying to help me with my search. Thank you so much. I’m such a slow coach at answering I’m afraid. It takes me a while to assimilate things. :(

Pleased that you also have Woodburn connections, Ian. You have a big task trying to go through all those records. It is hard to follow a line and so easy to pick up on the wrong one, especially when there are a lot with the same family name in an area.

I see your comment about the christenings of two other children of a Mary Brown. Like Looby I managed to find the marriage record of the parents and it showed that on 27 March 1824 George Woodburn married Mary Brown in the parish of Stonehouse, County of Lanark. I didn’t realise there was an earlier birth to a George Woodburn and Mary Brown – I only searched in the 1820s.

Lucky you Looby! You can walk down the road my ancestors probably knew so well.8) Must be great living in a place with so much history.

I’m still not feeling comfortable with the John and Lily/Lilias Woodburn connection. I can’t quite see the path to it yet.??? - but it may come clear later on. However I’m interested in your comment about the possibility of Mary Brown marrying under her maiden name. Never thought of that. I may be pressed to make another search. I know when Marion married her second husband she used her first husband’s surname so I just assumed that women always did this when they married for the second time.

Ian, Marion married her second husband Andrew McEwin in Victoria, Australia. Unfortunately not much helpful information was on the marriage image. Basically they both declared that they were members of the Presbyterian Church of Scotland and the minister declared that they were joined in wedlock on the 24th June 1850 at Geelong in the presence of witnesses. There was nothing at all about their family background. It was just a marriage register entry. It didn’t become legal to register marriages in Victoria until three years later.

Keep up the good work both of you.

Polly :)

Offline loobylooayr

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Re: Marion Woodburn - b. Ayr, Scotland, possibly 1819
« Reply #26 on: Thursday 15 January 15 09:23 GMT (UK) »
Good morning on a very blustery Ayrshire day,

Firstly, yes Ian you are right there would have been lots of Mary Browns in Ayrshire and indeed Lanarkshire and the rest of Scotland during this period. Like you I would doubt the Stonehouse Mary (and it does look like 2 different Mary's) and the Kilmaurs Mary are one in the same.  In fact the first George birth in 1803 could be the father of the George and John 20 odd years later. I don't get the feeling  :P that these people are connected to Marion in Ayrshire.

Polly, I can understand your reluctance to tie Marion in with John and Lilias Woodburn. There is no definite link to them yet (live in hope something's going to pop up and connect Marion with somebody!!) .
Unfortunately pre Statutory Reg. in 1855 all BMD's are recorded in Parish records and the info on them as you have discovered Polly is very sparse which makes life difficult with a common name especially.

The only definite piece of info you have on Marion in Scotland (other than her entry on a shipping list en route to Australia) is her marriage to Thomas McCulloch at Kilmarnock in 1845.
Sorry to keep harping on about it   ;D but Marion is recorded as being from near Bonnyhill.  The only reference to Bonnyhill I can find in the Kilmarnock locality is Bonnihill. This name, I don't think ,has survived to this day for this place as I can find no modern reference to it. But it is in a rural location outside the town of Kilmarnock and would not be heavily populated. And on the 1841 Census there are 2 Woodburn families living near Bonnihill -
John and Lilias
George and Agnes
On 1851 Census
John and Lilias have moved to another cottage in Kilmarnock area
George and Agnes are still at Ralston Hill Farm which does still exist.
I strongly suspect Marion is connected to either or both of these 2 families.

Speak soon
Looby :)