Author Topic: P&O Crew Lists - 1880-94 approx. tips on researching ?  (Read 5284 times)

Offline hatofthecat

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P&O Crew Lists - 1880-94 approx. tips on researching ?
« on: Wednesday 11 March 15 11:46 GMT (UK) »
My gg grandmother's death certificate describes my gg grandfather as having been a "Chief Engineer P. and O. liner" slightly more grand than the "marine engineer" I have from his own death certificate. Looking at this page

http://www.poheritage.com/…/crew-agreements-lists-official-…

it seems crew information is scattered over several archives for the period I need to be looking approx. 1880-94. Has anyone researched P&O crew and have any tips ?

His name was John Bowler Norris born Cardiff 1852 but any home address would be Hackney/Poplar/Leytonstone/Canning Town.

BTW I am slightly sceptical on this as the informant on my gg grandmother's death certificate is her youngest son who would have been only 10 when his father died nearly 40 years earlier and got his dad's middle name wrong. Could be a bit of "polishing up" of father's history  ???
Norris / Andover, Poplar, Canning Town, Stratford
Hughes, Cooper, New  / Berkshire
Waugh, Lisle, Davison, Mole, Luke, Dodd / Northumberland
Walton / Cumberland, County Durham, Northumberland
Littlefair / County Durham, Northumberland
Morcumb, Pedler, Warne, Whitford, Arthur, Warmington, Sleap, Docton,Couche / Cornwall
Ross / Middlesex, Hertfordshire
Southgate / Essex
Tarrant/Hampshire

Offline LizzieW

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Re: P&O Crew Lists - 1880-94 approx. tips on researching ?
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 11 March 15 13:37 GMT (UK) »
Hi

I transcribe crewlists and have done quite a few P & O ones.  The crew members should be listed on FindMyPast.  If you give me your g.g.grandfather's name, I'll have a look on my lists for you

Offline Maggsie

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Re: P&O Crew Lists - 1880-94 approx. tips on researching ?
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 11 March 15 13:54 GMT (UK) »
Hi,
Ships have to have the Chief Engineer to sail, it is/was an important job.
It seems that the Greenwich Naval museum has every ship record, I am going to visit one day as I need info on ship from 1884.
Maggsie

Offline hatofthecat

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Re: P&O Crew Lists - 1880-94 approx. tips on researching ?
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 11 March 15 14:46 GMT (UK) »
Thanks LizzieW, his name is as in posting above John Bowler Norris (middle name came from a family friend... have seen a few "interpretations" of it on various documents).

I've been pointed at "Dorset, England, Crew Lists, 1863-1914" on Ancestry which in 1886 he's discharged from a ship called Orleans as an assistant engineer J B Norris.  A proportion of the other crew look to have a company number (?) but not him.  I've not found what ship this actually was as yet or if it was a P&O ship. There is just one "engineer" listed so that chap must have been the "chief engineer" of the ship I guess ?

Maggsie, I need to get to Greenwich too as I've chap in my tree who died on HMS Rye in 1703 on way to/from the Virginia colonies and they apparently have the officer's log there which should tell me exactly when & how he died. 
Norris / Andover, Poplar, Canning Town, Stratford
Hughes, Cooper, New  / Berkshire
Waugh, Lisle, Davison, Mole, Luke, Dodd / Northumberland
Walton / Cumberland, County Durham, Northumberland
Littlefair / County Durham, Northumberland
Morcumb, Pedler, Warne, Whitford, Arthur, Warmington, Sleap, Docton,Couche / Cornwall
Ross / Middlesex, Hertfordshire
Southgate / Essex
Tarrant/Hampshire


Offline LizzieW

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Re: P&O Crew Lists - 1880-94 approx. tips on researching ?
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 11 March 15 17:22 GMT (UK) »
Hi - Sorry I didn't read your first post thoroughly - I was dogsitting my daughter's dog and it was being a bit of a nuisance (nothing unusual there, he'd already escaped this morning, fortunately a neighbour and his wife were outside their house with another neighbour and they managed to catch him).

I've looked at the crew names that have been transcribed and your ancestor is not yet listed. (I should say that as the Dorset ones are on Ancestry, I and my fellow transcribers will not be doing these). There was a John Norris from Cardiff, but he was born about 1879 and was an assistant steward and bandsman on a ship called Balmoral Castle.  Was that another ancestor?

I looked on Ancestry and, although the transcribed ages differ on the 2 occurrences of his name, I think the 2 are the same man and his age was mistranscribed on one of them.

I've looked up that particular ship Orleans and it was not a P & O vessel.  It was registered in Poole in 1876 (built in South Shields in 1874), and was owned by The Loire and Thames Transit Co. Ltd, 150 Fenchurch St, London.  I've googled that name and it doesn't appear to have been taken over by P & O.

By the way if you go to the crewlists and next to his name, you click on View Images, then once the image comes up go back one page and you'll see the details of the particular voyage.  In these 2 cases, it doesn't give much useful info, apart from the fact the vessel was going from London to St Nazaire.  It was also quite a small ship, only 271 tonnes net.

Offline hatofthecat

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Re: P&O Crew Lists - 1880-94 approx. tips on researching ?
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 11 March 15 23:29 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for all this detail LizzieW  8)  I hope the dog has not made another bid for freedom  :-\

"John Norris from Cardiff, but he was born about 1879 and was an assistant steward and bandsman on a ship called Balmoral Castle.  Was that another ancestor?"

I don't think so as I've not any John Norris' that fit.  My gg grandfather was actually only born in Cardiff because his father being a civil engineer was surveying the site for the East Bute docks in preparation for their being built a few years later, so no other family connection to Cardiff.

I've looked up that particular ship Orleans and it was not a P & O vessel.

I found a P&O page with all their ships listed and yes the Orleans was definitely not one of theirs.  I was scratching around and failed to find the info on the boat so well done on finding it.  Yup, 271 tons doesn't seem very big... no kind of liner !  ::)

I'm thinking I still need to get at the P&O crew lists somewhere to confirm what he did in the 8 years after that.  He died in 1894 of TB and I don't know how long before that he would have ceased working.

Norris / Andover, Poplar, Canning Town, Stratford
Hughes, Cooper, New  / Berkshire
Waugh, Lisle, Davison, Mole, Luke, Dodd / Northumberland
Walton / Cumberland, County Durham, Northumberland
Littlefair / County Durham, Northumberland
Morcumb, Pedler, Warne, Whitford, Arthur, Warmington, Sleap, Docton,Couche / Cornwall
Ross / Middlesex, Hertfordshire
Southgate / Essex
Tarrant/Hampshire

Offline LizzieW

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Re: P&O Crew Lists - 1880-94 approx. tips on researching ?
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 12 March 15 00:52 GMT (UK) »
I'll put his name on my list of names to look out for whilst I'm transcribing.

Lizzie

Offline hatofthecat

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Re: P&O Crew Lists - 1880-94 approx. tips on researching ?
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 12 March 15 15:04 GMT (UK) »
I'll put his name on my list of names to look out for whilst I'm transcribing

That would be great Lizzie, thanks again.

Pete
Norris / Andover, Poplar, Canning Town, Stratford
Hughes, Cooper, New  / Berkshire
Waugh, Lisle, Davison, Mole, Luke, Dodd / Northumberland
Walton / Cumberland, County Durham, Northumberland
Littlefair / County Durham, Northumberland
Morcumb, Pedler, Warne, Whitford, Arthur, Warmington, Sleap, Docton,Couche / Cornwall
Ross / Middlesex, Hertfordshire
Southgate / Essex
Tarrant/Hampshire

Offline seaweed

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Re: P&O Crew Lists - 1880-94 approx. tips on researching ?
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 12 March 15 18:41 GMT (UK) »
Rather than stab in the dark my advice is to first of all look at the following references from the National Archives.
BT141/5
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C573598
This is an index and should tell you where his engineers service records are. Either in BT139 BT 140 or Bt 142
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?name=Search&_aq=&_ep=&_or1=&_or2=&_or3=&_nq1=&_nq2=&_nq3=&_cr1=bt139&_cr2=bt140&_cr3=bt142&_dss=range&_sd=&_ed=&_hb=&_ro=any&_rd=&_rsd=&_red=&_st=adv&_rvOne of these series should tell you the names of all the ships he sailed on as an engineer.
Once you have this information you can then search for crew agreements and logbooks via the ships official number.
90% of crew agreements for the period are stored in the Maritime History Archive at the Memorial University of Newfoundland.
https://www.mun.ca/mha/
10% are stored at Kew.
Crew agreements for years ending in "5" are stored in NMM Greenwich.
In the first instance you would be advised to vist TNA Kew.
For what its worth. I think it unlikely that the man mentioned re. ORLEANS is your GGGrandfather.
Dim ateb yn well nag ateb anghywir. Nid oes dim yn ddall fel rhai nad ydynt yn dymuno gweld

RIP Roger 10 August 2022