Help Find Gr.Gr.Grandfather's Birth Record.

[GagaGram]

Hi,
I don't know if this is the correct board to post, but here goes. Would someone please help or advise me in unraveling this family mystery?

I've been trying for years to find the birth record of my gr.gr. grandfather,Alexander Baines.According to the 1900 Phila.,Pa. census,it states he was born March 1841 England.

Alexander married Nov. 1862 in Liverpool,Lancs. to Mary Elizabeth Ireland (1830-1901). He is listed as an engineer,a son of John Baines,wheelwright.
Alexander and Mary Elizabeth had 5 known children,Charlotte/Eliza Charlotte (1863),William Alexander (1865-1871), twins Joseph and Thomas (1868) and William Henry (1872). All children born Liverpool with Alexander as father.

I've found an Alexander Baines in 1861 Newton,Lancs. (RG9/2787 pg.37), a boarder, 20 yrs. old,an iron foundry laborer,born in Sheffield,Yks. No birth record has been found in Sheffield for this Alexander. Boarding along with Alexander is a Hugh Baines,46 yrs. old, a blacksmith, born Hulton,Lancs. I don't know if this is the Alexander I'm looking for or who this Hugh is..

The 1871 Toxteth Park census (RG10/3802 pg.54), the family is listed as Beans. Alexander is 30 yrs. old, a smith,born Manchester. I've not found any Alexander Beans/Baines born 1841 Liverpool or Manchester. Nor have I found, in the 1841 census, any Alexander born Mar. or June qtr. 1841, with a father, John.

In 1881, the family is listed as Baines, living in Sculcoates,Yks. (RG11 4763/101 pg.32). Alexander is 40 yrs. old, an iron furnaceman, born Liverpool.
I'm beginning to believe Alexander may have been his middle name. Since Alexander named his oldest son William Alexander and youngest son, William Henry,  could his father be William, but called John? I've looked at various spelling of Baines, with no luck.

 I don't know who to look for or where,hopefully someone can lead me in the right direction.
Best wishes.

[..claire..]

Hi

Was he married twice ?

In the 1900 American census his wife is HELEN.  Wonder if this is a record of them in the passenger lists

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1971-44395-9337-29?cc=2304666

The daughter Charlotte is also only 10 years old also ( per census record) , this doesnt match with a DOB of 1863.

Eliza Charlotte bn 1863 married in Liverpool 27 August 1883 a Joseph White

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NFFF-JRF

she remarried in 1888

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NFFF-PZ9

claire

[..claire..]

Hi

If I have the correct family, Alexanders wife Mary E Baines is with son Thomas in 1900 census claiming to be widowed, is this correct ?

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11127-29025-94?cc=1325221

claire

[GagaGram]

Hi Claire,
This is the correct family!! Alexander never legally married Ellen. Ellen Carroll was widowed and was the mother of Matthew,Samuel,James and Mary,who arrived in 1881 Boston. The other children who were with Alexander were possibly Alexander & wife, Mary's children,Thomas,Joseph and William Baines,although their ages are a bit out.

Alexander and Ellen had a daughter,Charlotte Laura/Laura Charlotte, who was born 1889 in Phila,Pa.
Alexander's wife, Mary E.Baines was living in 1900 Phila. with her son,Thomas & family. Thomas Baines is my great grandfather. I haven't found when Mary E. Baines came to the U.S.

Alexander's daughter Eliza Charlotte (1863), was married 2 times,was widowed, then lived in Liverpool with a William Dawson. She never had any known children. She remained in England,where she died,date unknown.

Ellen Carroll Baines died 1909 Phila. On May 11,1910,Alexander Baines arrived in Liverpool from Phila. No record has been found of him returning to the U.S. No death record has been found in the U.S. There also is no death record in England for Alexander from 1910 onward,unless his real forename was used?? Why would he have used Alexander most of his life,except at birth and death?
He remains a puzzle to me!!

Thank you for your time and help. I really appreciate it. Let me know if I'm overlooking something.

[BashLad]

So this is your relative-

Marriage: 24 Nov 1862 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Alexander Baines - (X), full, Engineer, Bachelor, Bridgewater St.
Mary Ireland - full, Spinster, Bridgewater St.
    Groom's Father: John Baines, Wheelwright
    Bride's Father: Thomas Ireland, Engineer
    Witness: Thomas McMasters; Elizabeth McMasters
    Married by Banns by: W. H. Denny Curate

This might be a brother-

Marriage: 14 Nov 1860 St Chad, Claughton, Lancashire, England
James Baines - full, Farmer, Widower, Claughton
Alice Beaumont - full, Spinster, Claughton
    Groom's Father: John Baines, Wheelwright
    Bride's Father: James Beaumont, Wheelwright
    Witness: Joshua Procter, (X); Rebecca Chaine; John Chaine
    Married by Licence by: J. Chaine, Rector

You say this-

"I've found an Alexander Baines in 1861 Newton,Lancs. (RG9/2787 pg.37), a boarder, 20 yrs. old,an iron foundry laborer,born in Sheffield,Yks. No birth record has been found in Sheffield for this Alexander. Boarding along with Alexander is a Hugh Baines,46 yrs. old, a blacksmith, born Hulton,Lancs. I don't know if this is the Alexander I'm looking for or who this Hugh is.."

I'm currently wondering if this Hulton (and there are places called Hulton) is actually Halton which is about three miles down the Lune valley from Claughton.

Further to this - there is an older married couple a James and Mary Baines, both born at Claughton living at Haydock which is only up the road from newton le willows (formerly newton in makerfield).

Baptism: 31 Jul 1803 St Chad, Claughton, Lancashire, England
James Baynes - son of John Baynes & Nancy
    Born: 9 Jul

There's a father and daughter John and Rebecca Baynes, both born at lancaster and living in islington, liverpool.

There's definitely some sort of flow of people called Baines from the Lune valley down to Merseyside.

Marriage: 11 Oct 1794 St Mary, Lancaster, Lancashire, England
John Baines - Carpenter, Widower, Lancaster
Nancy Beaumont - (X), Spinster, Caton
    Witness: Wil'm Lucas; Eliz'th Lucas, (X)
    Married by Licence with consent by: J. THOMAS, Curate


More to follow (hopefully) I'm just sticking my conjecture here so I don't lose track.

[GagaGram]

Hi BashLad,
Thank you so much for the information.I do believe that James Baines is very well a brother to Alexander. I've found a christening for a James Baines,son of John and Mary on 3 Aug. 1834 Manchester Cathedral. I don't know if this is the correct James or not. I have found James and 2nd wife Alice and 2 children, in 1861 Haydock,Lancs. RG 9/2788. In 1851 Scotforth,Lancs. there is  a James Bains,17yrs. general servant, born Claughton,Lancs.living in home of Arthur Dewhurst,farmer HO 107/2272 Pg.4.

I was hoping, by some stroke of luck, that I would find James,Alexander and father, John, in the 1841 or 1851 census. I guess that would be too easy!!

If you have any suggestions as to what I should do next,please let me know. I need all the help I can get!!

[..claire..]

Hi

Unless he changed occupations it may not be the right man

 3 Aug 1834 Collegiate, Manchester, Lancashire, England
James Son of John Baines & Mary
Abode: Salford
Fathers Occ: BUTCHER

He is in the 1841 census in Salford, transcribed BAIN

Regent Road.

John Bain  30  BUTCHER bn S(cotland)
James         6                  bn in county
Mary           2                    "   "     "
Mary          30                  not bn in county

Class HO107,  Piece 586,  Book 10, Folio 34, Page 13, Line 15.

claire

[GagaGram]

Hi Claire,
You're right. This christening is not the correct family. This is my mistake. I was going by his age of 27 yrs. in the 1861 Haydock,Lancs. census (RG9/2788 Pg.59). Maybe this is not the James Baines who married secondly in 1860 in Claughton,Lancs.

If Alexander, or whatever was his forename,was supposedly born Mar.1841,shouldn't he be listed as an infant in the 1841 census,which was 6 June ? Or could they be missed by the census taker?
Maybe the father, John Baines, wasn't a wheelwright until right before James and Alexander were married in 1860 & 62? But then again, that doesn't explain why the family hasn't been found in 1841,51,etc.

Sorry to be going on about this, but after years of searching, I'm grasping at straws, from frustration.
Thanks,again for your time and help.I really appreciate it!

[dfk]

Might this help, in the birth indexs...

Alexander Baines, born Jan Qtr 1841, South Shields, Durham, England. (jan qtr being for the months of jan, feb and march).
and also in the baptism records the same person... born 13th Jan 1841 and with Baptism on the  20th July 1841 at St Hilda, South Shields, Durham, England.

Dave.