George Postle 1847 Great Yarmouth

[Toban]

Hey John,

Given the span of years between the marriage between John Purcell and Priscilla in 1799 and when John and Ann were having children in the late 1810s/1820s it could be possible that they are the same John, and that Ann is his second wife.

In fact, I found a burial for Priscilla 'Pastal' (another spelling variant to watch out for!), wife of John Pastal, aged 38, on 10 Jan 1808 in Great Yarmouth. A note in the register states her maiden name was Page, so this is definitely the wife of John m. 1799.

T

[elricks]

Hello there. This family is my mail line, and I have completed extensive research into George's father William. You will find a lot on my web site shirley-elrick.com

The name PURCELL comes from Co Mayo in Ireland.  George's grandfather was John PURCELL, born Kilcommon Mayo in 1782.  This information is from John's army enlistment papers.

He signed up in 1813 in Yarmouth when he was 33

He went to Australia (New South Wales) with a wife Ann, and they had 2 children born in NSW. William and Elisabeth.  William was born in George Town (northern Tasmania), and the family left Australia for points unknown when the regiment's tour of duty finished.

I believe John died in 1833 in Yarmouth.

A third child George was born in Yarmouth 1827.

As an aside I have Priscilla PAGE as John's first wife (M 1799 Yarmouth, she died 1808)

My fellow descendents and I have come to the conclusion that the name 'changed' to POSTLE because of the Norfolk 'lazy' accent, with POSTLE and PURCELL sounding very similar when rolling of Yarmouth lips....

happy to help anyone with copies of docs...

And would love to know if anyone has found any details of Ann, John's wife, and the marriage...

SHIRLEY

[James2you]

Thanks Toban, did you come across anything for daughter Elizabeth at all, John & Ann`s daughter ?

Thanks again

John

[Toban]

Hey John,

Yes I did find Elizabeth! Using Shirley's clues that John was a soldier (I had suspected as much - not many of the convicts sent here found their way back to the Old Country) I tracked her down in India.

From the British India Office burials register:
"Trichonopoly, 15th October 1824
Elizabeth, Daughter of John Purcell, Private in Hs. Ms. 48th Regt. and of Ann his wife, Aged 6 Years was buried by the Revd. Jas. Wright."

T

[James2you]

Brilliant, When did John marry Ann & what was her maiden name, I saw that someone had them wed in Chelsea, but think that is wrong.
What do you think ?

Cheers again

John

[Toban]

I'm not sure when they married or what Ann's maiden name was. If Priscilla was indeed his first wife - I'm a little sceptical on this, as he would've been on 17 (if his age on his army papers is correct) when he married - then his marriage to Ann would have been some time between 1808 and 1818.

The only candidates I can see in England are a John 'Purcill' marrying Ann Smith in St. Andrew Holborn 28 Apr 1811; and John 'Purcel' marrying Ann Nichols in the Chelmsford Cathedral 17 Jan 1814. Of these I would think the second more likely... In both cases both parties were single and of the parish, and neither John's could sign their name. Neither entry makes any reference to any Regimental position, as is sometimes the case.

From the end of the Peninsula War until their deployment to Australia, the 48th were stationed in southern Ireland, so it may be that they were married over there. But Irish records are few and far between, unfortunately, so it would be a hard task to track them down...

[elricks]

Toban - what a gold mine you are.  Thank you so much for the India stuff.

You will have seen that I don't have a clue where Ann came from. I am comfortable they did not marry in AU.

John's age when he was buried in Yarmouth agrees with that on his army papers. However, I still like the PAGE marriage as George (son born to John and Ann in Yarmouth after getting back from India) was charged with stealing bedding (and I think the actual bed) from Ann Page in 1863. He was acquitted. I am thinking here that there may have been a family relationship of some sort.

Of the 2 possibilities for his 2nd marriage (Ireland or Yarmouth) I make the following 'statements'.

Ireland - If I could find that John was actually in Ireland before the regiment left for AU, then I would think this the most likely.

Yarmouth - The fact that John and Ann ended up back in Yarmouth after he got out of the army leads me to believe there must have been something to take him back there.  If Ann had family there, that would be a good enough reason.  I am sure that John's roots were all in Ireland, and I have never found anything that links this family with Norfolk. William (the son born in Tasmania) was in the fish business in Yarmouth in 1840's. Not labouring, but dealing in fish, and getting into  money trouble. 1841 census has him in Yarmouth Gaol for debt.

Whilst there is no proof, I would believe it would be easier to get into the fish business if you already had family connections within. This brings me back to the idea there were family connections with Yarmouth, which could only come about from Ann's or Priscilla's family.  Note I have not found any children of John and Ann PAGE in Yarmouth.

SHIRLEY

[elricks]

One more thing - I found Ann in the 1841 census in Yarmouth, Laughing Image Corner

Registration district    Great Yarmouth
Archive reference    HO107
Piece number    793
Book number    8
Folio number    33
Page number    19
Record set    1841 England, Wales & Scotland Census

In the same house is Christopher PAGE aged 30.  She says she was born in Norfolk....

Her son William who was in the Yarmouth Gaol in 1841, sentenced to 14 days for debt (and who is my direct ancestor) was also on her listing as well.  This is of course an assumption on my part, but he was also shown as being born in Yarmouth, so if they got him wrong, they could have got her wrong as well.

[elricks]

All responders - John PURCELL is my umpteenth great grandfather.  He was born in Co Mayo, Ireland in 1782.  I have DNA matches to other people who are descended from one generation earlier than John (most in USA NOW).  I won't give chapter and verse regarding provenance as this will make this note far too long, but if you look him up in Family Seach's One World Tree it is all there.

I do not know why nor how he came to be in Great Yarmouth when he married Priscilla PAGE in 1799. Yes that is quite young, but I have done a LOT of work on this man. Supporting evidence of his age abounds. I have a theory regarding an uprising in Co Mayo, with John being sent 'away' to keep him out of trouble, but I have absolutely no proof.

Priscilla died in Jan 1808. No children recorded that I can find.

John joined the army in Yarmouth 28th Nov 1813. The Northamptonshire Regiment (48th Foot) was recruiting all over England. I have read his enlistment papers.

The army records are not complete, but a John PURCELL was with the 48th in Fermoy (Ireland) Dec 1816, then in New South Wales in 1817.  He and Ann sailed (waltzed?) to NSW on the Matilda.

I have not clearly identified the Ann who was married to John by the time the regiment left for garrison duty in Australia.  This was the first regiment who were allowed (or encouraged) to take the wives of the lesser ranks to the colonies.  One theory regarding his marriage is that he married Ann in order to have a wife in the colonies - ie not long before the regiment left Ireland.  They were certainly married, as I am CERTAIN the army would not have been transporting de facto partners.

The 2 Australian children were born (I believe) in George Town (northern Tasmania) whilst John was stationed there. John was the pay clerk for George Town. There are a couple of newspaper ads regarding financial stuff where he is named.

Elizabeth died at the age of 6 in India, and William (my ancestor) and John and Ann were back in Yarmouth shortly after that.

One more child was born after they returned to Yarmouth, George or George William in 1825. In 1841 William was in the lock up in Yarmouth (14 days for debt) clearly showing a birthplace of New South Wales.

Yet another theory follows, but I need to explain first that (1) I was born and lived in Yarmouth for my first 10 years (2) I keep in contact with other close relatives from this branch who still live there, two of whom are also researching the family (3) I understand the local Yarmouth Dialect.

My theory regarding the name change is that John well knew his name was PURCELL, but no other people with that name lived in Yarmouth. A few people named POSTLE did though.  In the Norfolk dialect, POSTLE and PURCELL would sound almost the same. Hence over time the name simply became POSTLE.  To support my linguistic theory, one memorable marriage certificate has the bride named as PARCEL.  Also a word that would sound remarkably similar to the other 2 when drawled out by a Yarmouth citizen.

I will gladly answer all queries.