Author Topic: Relevance of Changing Coat of Arms?  (Read 1935 times)

Offline billcat

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 9
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Relevance of Changing Coat of Arms?
« on: Saturday 18 April 15 18:21 BST (UK) »
A Coat of Arms started back in Anglo-Norman times as:-

vair a fess gu

A bit later (pre-College of Arms) several members of the family slightly adapted it to

vair a fess gu fretty or (i.e. they added a gold cross hatch to the stripe in the middle)

and then (still pre-College of Arms) several of them started using the very different

gules a lion rampant vair crowned or

Does anyone know

1 - what does the addition of the gold cross hatch signify?
2 - why would a family start using such a radically different design as the lion rampant which only shares the vair coluring of their previous arms? Marriage?

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline MaecW

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 212
  • Yma o hyd
    • View Profile
Re: Relevance of Changing Coat of Arms?
« Reply #1 on: Monday 20 April 15 14:35 BST (UK) »
Hi,

The first part of your question - the addition of the fretty or - was probably "differencing", to show the holder was part of the family but not the senior line.

Your second change puzzles me. The first two coats of arms belong to some members of the Marmion family but the third seems to belong either to the Everinghams of Yorkshire or Hamlyn of Devon, neither of which appear to be connected to the Marmions. Can you advise your sources so we can investigate further ?

Maec
Baron (of Blackburn), Chadwick (Oswaldtwistle), Watkins (Swansea), Jones (x3 Swansea), Colton (Shropshire), Knight (Shropshire/Montgomery) , Bullen (Norfolk), White (Dorset)

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline billcat

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 9
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Relevance of Changing Coat of Arms?
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 21 April 15 18:46 BST (UK) »
Hi Maec

Yes it is the Marmion family.

The original senior 3 lines of the family (Tamworth, Winteringham & Torrington) are all listed as having the original arms they had back in France.

"vair a fess gu"

According to Charles Ferrers Palmer, who has probably researched the family more than anyone else, a line eminating from the sixth son of the senior line, settled at Galby Leics. In Galby church there are 2 coats of arms identified as being Marmion ones listed in Nicholls History of Leicestershire:-

1 - "vair, a fess gules, fretty or"
2 - gules, a lion argent rampant, crowned or

and interestingly an Everingham one quartered with another

3 - Quarterly, 1 & 4  gules, a lion argent rampant, crowned or Everingham; 2 & 3 per pale and a bend...

At first I thought Nicholls must have confused the arms of the Marmion and the Everingham families but Burkes General Armory also list the Marmions using the lion rampant design in addition to their original simple "vair a fess gu".

Confusing...

Offline MaecW

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 212
  • Yma o hyd
    • View Profile
Re: Relevance of Changing Coat of Arms?
« Reply #3 on: Friday 01 May 15 13:34 BST (UK) »
Hi Billcat,

"At first I thought Nicholls must have confused the arms of the Marmion and the Everingham families"
I think you may well be right. Nichols is noted for his "History" BUT "the quality of the content is very variable" (see Wikipedia).
I've also been unable to find any record of Marmions using the lion rampant design except for the entries in Burkes General Armory, which you quote.  The problem with the General Armory is that it is a mish-mash of entries collected from all over and included often without either source or dates, and without any attempt at authentication. In this instance the Burke compilers may well have just copied the information from Nichols without bothering to check for accuracy.

That said, I only have limited access to Heraldic resources and it may yet turn out that there is a connection of some kind.

Maec

 
Baron (of Blackburn), Chadwick (Oswaldtwistle), Watkins (Swansea), Jones (x3 Swansea), Colton (Shropshire), Knight (Shropshire/Montgomery) , Bullen (Norfolk), White (Dorset)

Offline billcat

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 9
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Relevance of Changing Coat of Arms?
« Reply #4 on: Monday 04 May 15 15:55 BST (UK) »
Papworths Ordinary also lists a Marmion lion arms:-

Gules. a lion rampant or. fretty azure Sir William Marmion, Gloucester

It apparently comes from Glovers Ordinary which seems to be a list of armigers in 1567.

Joseph Fosters "Some Feudal Coats of Arms" lists the following;

gules a lion rampant vair crowned or (uncrowned in Jenyns Ordinary)

being worn by

1) Sir Wm Marmion at the first Dunstable tournament in 1308
2) a Suffolk Knight according to the Arundel Roll and to
3) Sir Wm Marmion of Leics (in Parly. Roll though in Harl. MS 6137 fo24 the field is argent and the lion vert)

So it looks like the lion arms in Galby church may be those of the 1308 Dunstable jouster, Sir William Marmion (but has different colouring from the later Gloucester one) or one of his descendants, and the simpler vair fess gules fretty perhaps being the senior member of the Marmion family Sir Philip Marmion who kept an eye on the land his junior cousins were subletting off of him (and no doubt had more money to pay for church repairs!).

So why did at least two of the junior Marmion lines switch from the vair fess gules design to lion rampant ones?