Great-Grandmother Jessie Romminger born Manchester, middle name?

[keyboard86]

Sorry do not fully understand,  so William is  occ Packer his father is a William occ Bricklayer how does that tell you he was a William Christopher?
Keyboard86

PS to show you how occupations changed in that era, the father William (if him in 1870 baptism / census) is a Labourer in 1881, Dealer in Sawdust 1891, Scavenger 1901 and at remarriage in 1895 a Sawdust Dealer, his father was a Henry Noah Payne occ Bricklayer

This marriage does not repeat does not show a middle name Christopher,  so prove to me at least, his middle name was Christopher?
Keyboard86

[e-payne]

William gives his age as 22 upon his marriage in 1892. If that was accurate, he will have been born sometime during 1869-70.  The birth index shows over a hundred William Paynes registered in those two years (with and without middle names).   As he is not with Jessie on any census, and doesn't use a middle name at marriage or in the baptism records of his children, how do you know where he was born?

Yes sadly William got married and died all within the 2 censuses of 1891 and 1901. He is however on the census of 1891 living in the same London parish as the marriage (St Mark, Shoreditch). He meets all of the criteria known from the 1892 marriage certificate ... he is exactly the right age of 22, unmarried and living with his father William Payne, bricklayer. Easily worked backwards through earlier censuses from there to Godmanchester where William and his father William Francis and grandfather Christopher were all born. Found his baptismal certificate giving his exact birth date and full name of William Christopher Payne. 

 I have presented all of the censuses with William on them on my FB group Frederick William Payne if you want to take a look at them. Thanks so much for trying to make sure that I've done my research correctly .... if I've made a mistake I want to know about it!   

[e-payne]

Sorry do not fully understand,  so William is  occ Packer his father is a William occ Bricklayer how does that tell you he was a William Christopher?
Keyboard86

PS to show you how occupations changed in that era, the father William (if him in 1870 baptism / census) is a Labourer in 1881, Dealer in Sawdust 1891, Scavenger 1901 and at remarriage in 1895 a Sawdust Dealer, his father was a Henry Noah Payne occ Bricklayer

This marriage does not repeat does not show a middle name Christopher,  so prove to me at least, his middle name was Christopher?
Keyboard86

This link will take you to his baptismal certificate showing his full name of William Christopher Payne. Born in Godmanchester 1869. Scroll just a bit till you come to it. This document alone doesn't prove he is my Great-Grandfather, only that this is his full name. Thanks for checking!

https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bsurname%3Apayne~%20%2Bbirth_place%3A%22godmanchester%2C%20huntingdon%2C%20england%22~%20%2Brecord_country%3AEngland

[Galium]

Birth Index June quarter 1869
Payne    William Christopher        Marylebone    1a   484

The timing tallies with the baptism at Godmanchester on 9 July 1869 of William Christopher s/o William Francis and Mary Ann Payne.

1871 census
Willesdon, Middlesex
William Payne head  26  labourer                  born God Manchester, Hunts
Mary  Payne wife      24                                       Paddington, Middlesex
William Payne son      1                                       Paddington, Middlesex
________________________________________________________________________

1881 census
Hampstead, Middlesex

William Francis Payne head 36 Plumber's labourer  Godmanchester, Hunts
Mary Payne               wife  34                              Marylebone, Middlesex
Wm. Payne                son 12 Scholar                          Brompton, Middlesex
Amy Payne                daur 9  Scholar                             Kilburn, Middlesex
Rosey Payne              daur 5 Scholar                             Kilburn Middlesex
_______________________________________________________________________

1891 census

Paddington, Middlesex
William F Payne head   44     Bricklayer        Huntingdon
Ann Payne       wife     44                           London
William Payne     son    22                           London
Annie*  Payne      daur   19                           London
Rose Payne        daur    15                             London
Charles Payne     son      9                            London
E.        Payne      son      6                            London

*unclear, could be Amie
__________________________________________
However :

Marriage St John's, Kensal Green

26 September 1898
William Christopher Payne 29 bachelor   decorator
s/o William Francis Payne    labourer
Edith Augusta Anderson 28 spinster
d/o David Anderson  farmer
both of  46 Harvest Road [Chelsea]
____________________________________

1901 census

Buckhurst Hill, Essex
William C Payne head 31 Tobacconist & Newsagent   London, Brompton Ct
E A Payne  wife          30                                       London  Notting Hill
Cyril Payne son          7m                                        Essex
Edith Strutton niece   7                                          London, Notting Hill

This family are in Sunningdale in Berkshire in 1911.

[heywood]

Hi Eileen,

The William you refer to in 1891 is in St Mark's Paddington not Shoreditch.

There is this marriage:
26 September 1898 St John the Evangelist, Kensal Green

William Christopher Payne 29 yrs born abt 1869 Decorator
Father William Francis Payne, Labourer
Edith Augusta Anderson 28 yrs
Father David Anderson

I don't think you have the right William.

Sorry, I didn't scroll down to the marriage.

[e-payne]

Birth Index June quarter 1869
Payne    William Christopher        Marylebone    1a   484

The timing tallies with the baptism at Godmanchester on 9 July 1869 of William Christopher s/o William Francis and Mary Ann Payne.

1871 census
Willesdon, Middlesex
William Payne head  26  labourer                  born God Manchester, Hunts
Mary  Payne wife      24                                       Paddington, Middlesex
William Payne son      1                                       Paddington, Middlesex
________________________________________________________________________

1881 census
Hampstead, Middlesex

William Francis Payne head 36 Plumber's labourer  Godmanchester, Hunts
Mary Payne               wife  34                              Marylebone, Middlesex
Wm. Payne                son 12 Scholar                          Brompton, Middlesex
Amy Payne                daur 9  Scholar                             Kilburn, Middlesex
Rosey Payne              daur 5 Scholar                             Kilburn Middlesex
_______________________________________________________________________

1891 census

Paddington, Middlesex
William F Payne head   44     Bricklayer        Huntingdon
Ann Payne       wife     44                           London
William Payne     son    22                           London
Annie*  Payne      daur   19                           London
Rose Payne        daur    15                             London
Charles Payne     son      9                            London
E.        Payne      son      6                            London

*unclear, could be Amie
__________________________________________
However :

Marriage St John's, Kensal Green

26 September 1898
William Christopher Payne 29 bachelor   decorator
s/o William Francis Payne    labourer
Edith Augusta Anderson 28 spinster
d/o David Anderson  farmer
both of  46 Harvest Road [Chelsea]
____________________________________

1901 census

Buckhurst Hill, Essex
William C Payne head 31 Tobacconist & Newsagent   London, Brompton Ct
E A Payne  wife          30                                       London  Notting Hill
Cyril Payne son          7m                                        Essex
Edith Strutton niece   7                                          London, Notting Hill

This family are in Sunningdale in Berkshire in 1911.

Thanks for checking all of the censuses Galium. The info on Jessie & William's 1892 marriage certificate matches the 1891 census ... William age 22, unmarried, living in St Mark's Shoreditch, with his father William, occupation bricklayer.

By 1898, Jessie Romminger had been married for 6 years already with 2 children Fred 6 & John 2 so that eliminates that William in my view.

[keyboard86]

Hi Eileen,

The William you refer to in 1891 is in St Mark's Paddington not Shoreditch.

There is this marriage:
26 September 1898 St John the Evangelist, Kensal Green

William Christopher Payne 29 yrs born abt 1869 Decorator
Father William Francis Payne, Labourer
Edith Augusta Anderson 28 yrs
Father David Anderson

I don't think you have the right William.

Sorry, I didn't scroll down to the marriage.

What about this from Heywood?
Keyboard86

[Rosinish]

1911 census for Jessie Payne and daughter Louisa. So many things fit perfectly ... names, ages, birth places, Shoreditch connection but it indicates Jessie is married to another man James Payne for 18 years with 6 children but only 3 living (btw Jessie had 3 kids living Fred, John & Louisa). The children's father was William Christopher Payne died in 1901 at age 30. So something doesn't jive .... it could be them but if so there are some fibs and/or mistakes on the census.

I'm assuming Jessie gave the details for the kids she bore......................and would not have had to state that 2 men were involved 

Annie

[e-payne]

Hi Eileen,

The William you refer to in 1891 is in St Mark's Paddington not Shoreditch.

There is this marriage:
26 September 1898 St John the Evangelist, Kensal Green

William Christopher Payne 29 yrs born abt 1869 Decorator
Father William Francis Payne, Labourer
Edith Augusta Anderson 28 yrs
Father David Anderson

I don't think you have the right William.

Sorry, I didn't scroll down to the marriage.

You and Keyboard86 sure are keeping me on my toes ... I love it! I'm so grateful to you both for scrutinizing everything. I want it to be right!

If you look at the 1891 censuses for both Jessie Romminger (age 19, still living with father Frederick William Romminger) and my William (age 22, still living with father William Payne) they both are residing in the ecclesiastical parish of St Marks. The civil parishes differ but it's something that puts them together in the same general area of London, close enough that they're in the same religious parish anyway. Add that to all the other things that match up such as age, marital status, father's name & occupation and I do believe I have the right William Payne.