Author Topic: The Simmons family Gt Yarmouth  (Read 11856 times)

Online ShaunJ

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Re: The Simmons family Gt Yarmouth
« Reply #18 on: Thursday 25 June 15 13:54 BST (UK) »
It would help if we could find a birth registration for Louisa, or a marriage for probable sister Ellen (Nellie) Simmons to Frederick Haggata (remember that 1901 census item).

What address is given for Louisa on the marriage certificate?




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Offline Scottleneveu

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Re: The Simmons family Gt Yarmouth
« Reply #19 on: Thursday 25 June 15 18:43 BST (UK) »
Hello :)

All it says on the marriage certificate is Louisa Gertrude Simmons 20 Spinster, Gt Yarmouth with her fathers name as James Thomas Simmons a labourer. It has Charles' address as 32 North Quay if that's any help?

Scott

Online ShaunJ

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Re: The Simmons family Gt Yarmouth
« Reply #20 on: Thursday 25 June 15 19:33 BST (UK) »
If she was under 21 then someone must have given permission for her to marry. Presumably that was John James Simmons.

I'm thinking that the circumstantial evidence is stacking up to support the proposition that Louisa was the daughter of army pensioner Thomas Simmons and wife Mary Ellen Walker, despite certain discrepancies. I will aim to write up my thoughts on this for you over the next day or two.
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Offline Scottleneveu

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Re: The Simmons family Gt Yarmouth
« Reply #21 on: Thursday 25 June 15 19:42 BST (UK) »
Okay Shaun, that's superb. I look forward to reading what you have to say :) just for my piece of mind though, Thomas Simmons and Mary Ellen Walker is that the couple that lived in Essex for a while and she was from somewhere in Ireland? Do I have that bit right? You'll have to forgive me if I'm wrong

Scott


Online ShaunJ

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Re: The Simmons family Gt Yarmouth
« Reply #22 on: Thursday 25 June 15 19:57 BST (UK) »
Yes. She was born in Enniskillen.
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Online ShaunJ

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Re: The Simmons family Gt Yarmouth
« Reply #23 on: Sunday 28 June 15 14:37 BST (UK) »
Let’s start with what we know with reasonable certainty about Louisa Gertrude Simmons.
 
Place of birth: she was born in Great Yarmouth (1911 census https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X75V-PDR  ), and was married there in 1909 to George Charles Underwood.  However there is no record of her birth registration in the GRO index.

Date of birth:   In April 1911 she was aged 21; in late 1909 (marriage) she was 20. So a birthdate in 1889 seems likely. However the GRO death index (1974) shows her date of birth as 5 May 1887: 2 years earlier.

Father:  James Thomas Simmons, a labourer, per her marriage certificate.

Other known relatives:  Daughter Nellie Underwood  born 1910; and probable relative John James Simmons who witnessed the 1909 marriage, and presumably gave permission for her to marry (she was a minor).
 
Now we go back in time.  Next stop the 1901 census: there is only one Louisa Simmons born Great Yarmouth in the 1901 census. She is listed as Louisa H Simmons, aged 12 and she is with her sister Nellie Haggata, aged 28, born Chatham, and Nellie’s husband Frederick Haggata aged 28, born Great Plumbstead. Residence 133 Blackfriars Road.
 
I have not been able to find a record of Frederick Haggata’s marriage to Nellie.

Going back further, there's this family in the 1891 census in Great Yarmouth (Row 48):

Thomas Simmonds     51    labourer               Gt Yarmouth
Ellen                   42    wife                   Inniskillen, Ireland
William         20    son    Smacksman    Chatham Kent
John                   14    son    scholar       Gt Warley Essex
Alfred          10    son                  Gt Yarmouth
Edward          7    son                  ditto
George          6    son                  ditto
Harry          5    son                  ditto
Louisa           1    daur           ditto

[EDIT this was cut and pasted from Word and the formatting has been lost!)

Again this Louisa is the only candidate in this census. The age ties in perfectly with the information from 1909 and 1911. Sister Nellie does not appear with the family on this census but she is with them in 1881:

Warley Road, Hammonds Lane, South Weald, Essex

Thomas Simmons    40    army pensioner                    Gt Yarmouth
Ellen                        28           wife                        Ireland
William                   9             son                     Chatham Kent
Ellen                       7             daur                      Warley Essex
James                   3              son                 ditto                                  
Elizabeth                1           daur                 ditto
       
Note that the son born circa 1877/8 is referred to alternately as John and James in the censuses. The daughter Ellen listed in 1881 is presumably "Nellie".

Per the birth certificate posted online by another researcher,  John James Simmons was born on 6 January 1878 in South Weald (which is adjacent to Great Warley), father John Thomas Simmons a private in 56th Regiment, mother Mary Allen Simmons, formerly Walker. Informant father John T Simmons, Warley Road, South Weald.was born in Warley, Essex on 6 January 1878.

[NB this tallies with a Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve record for John James Simmons at The National Archives. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8553968 ]

The same researcher has also posted a marriage certificate. John James Simmons, a mariner aged 22, married Alice Rosina Adams in Tottenham on Christmas day 1898. His father is named as John Simmons, a mariner. It would be interesting to see Louisa’s 1909 marriage certificate (if it is a copy of the original register entry) to compare the two signature of John James Simmons, albeit that they are 11 years apart.

There is an army record for Thomas Simmons of 56th Regiment, born Great Yarmouth circa 1840, a mariner, enlisted March 1859, served 8 years in the East Indies, discharged at Warley in August 1880.

Thomas Simmons appears to have died in Great Yarmouth in 1893 aged 53 so Louisa would hardly have known him.  There is also a death record for Mary Ellen Simmons aged 45 in 1900 which may be her mother.

Despite the discrepancies in the father’s name on various records (was he Thomas, John, John Thomas or James Thomas?) and the absence of a birth or baptism  record for Louisa, I think the circumstantial evidence that she is the daughter of Thomas and Mary Ellen Simmons is very strong,  and is reinforced by the presence of a John James Simmons at her marriage.  There is no record that I could find of any other Louisa or Gertrude Simmons born in Great Yarmouth circa 1889.
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Offline Scottleneveu

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Re: The Simmons family Gt Yarmouth
« Reply #24 on: Tuesday 30 June 15 19:22 BST (UK) »
Hello Shaun and thank you for all of this wonderful information!

Sorry it's taken me a while to reply but I haven't been well these past few days. If this is indeed the right family, how could I go about finding out more about Ellen and her life in Ireland? That's something that I would be interested in :)

Yes, I'd like to know if the two signatures matched up, perhaps if you send me your email privately I could send you a copy of the marriage certificate that I have? If you don't want to do that I totally understand :)

All the best

Scott

Online ShaunJ

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Re: The Simmons family Gt Yarmouth
« Reply #25 on: Tuesday 30 June 15 19:36 BST (UK) »
I noticed a marriage in Romford in q/e Dec 1876 between Thomas Simmons and Ellen Walker (vol 4a 245) which might be worth following up.
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Online ShaunJ

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Re: The Simmons family Gt Yarmouth
« Reply #26 on: Wednesday 01 July 15 16:08 BST (UK) »
Another spelling variation in the 1871 worldwide army index:

388 Private Thomas Symonds
54th Regiment of Foot HQ at the Curragh Camp, Ireland
"Attached from 56th Regt Depot"

The army number (388) is correct for Thomas Simmons.
UK Census info. Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk