Gypsy Fairs during World War II

[sandy.l]

I am still trying to find information about my elusive grandfather, George Alfred Davies who was said to travel with the Gypsy Fairs, certainly in the 1930's. I wonder if it is possible to find out whether there were known fairs/festivals at certain locations in order to try and track him down to a specific group of show/fairground people?

I have George documented at the following locations:

Sep 1934 - Lodging House - 30 Bridge Lane, Lancaster, where my father was born.
approx. July-Dec 1936 - Carnforth - Mill Bank
Jan - Aug 1937 - Lodging House - 117 St Leonardsgate, Lancaster (where my grandmother died)
Sept 1938 - March 1939 - Lodging House - 8 White Lion Yard, Kendal
March 1939 - Aintree - Grand National Race
17-20 Mar 1940 - Lodging House - 28 Clerke Street, Bury
29th June - 12th July 1940 - Lodging House - 24 Clerke Street, Bury

These dates and locations are listed on my fathers care home records after his father deserted the family in March 1939. There is no historical information noted for either of his parents. George's wife, my grandmother, was called Emily or Helen or Nellie Cunningham.

I have also been wondering why he was not called up in 1940, could this be perhaps because he was too old? I do not have any knowledge of his date of birth or place of birth but I estimate he will have been older than conscription age because when my grandmother died in 1937 she was 39, so born about 1898. If he was a similar age he will have only just been too old for conscription.

I am of course eagerly awaiting the release of the 1939 ID card register!!

Any help offered received with huge gratitude! I am heading off to bed but will be back online tomorrow.

Many thanks xx

[rob g]

Hi. Sandy. I don't think George was a gypsy. We don't go round with fairs. And he is constantly staying in lodging houses. Not camping. Also I know and live in the area.olso my family going back 150 years live in the areas mentioned. Never heard the name. I believe 40 was the enlistment age at the start of the war. And if he was moving. Perhaps he just didn't get is call up paper. But lots of Romany men did fight. Some chose not to? What was his occupation? Even showmen lived in caravans. So don't think he was a gypsy. There are/was. Only Appleby. Brough. Rosley. Horse fairs. Not show. Rides.  etc. But nearly every town was visited by the fairs back then.  Not much help. See if you can flesh him out. And get back. Rob.

[sandy.l]

Hi rob g

Thank you for your reply.

I think I agree with you, that George wasn't a true gypsy. I have used the words of the investigating officer when I say George was "said to travel with the gypsy fairs", whether this is true I am not certain. I would love to find out more about him and was hoping that information about fairs in these locations might be a way of doing that. I want to go to Lancaster & Kendal to see if I can find anything out but at the moment I'm not sure what to look for! I thought maybe newspapers, electoral rolls?

I have come across true Davies & Cunningham Gypsies during my research, but haven't been able to connect my George or Emily to them (yet?), although the Davies's are more in the Shropshire areas and the Cunningham's in Lancaster/Blackpool. George did cohabit with Clara Lock, a Hawker, in 8 White Lion Yard, Kendal, and they had twin girls, Lena & Rhoda born 1938, they have also disappeared without trace although the papers suggest they "may have returned to Ireland" (the words of the investigator).

Re his occupations, I only have a few details. George stated he is a General Hawker on my Dads birth certificate, on the baptism it says he is a general labourer, and on my Dads papers the investigator reports that George "makes his living drain cleaning and begging".

I am currently investigating every George Alfred Davies on the 1901/1911 census to try and pin him down, I know some people are happy to accept information on Ancestry as their own heritage without confirming whether it is correct, but I have real need to find out the truth for my father, who grew up with no family (he has passed now). Another reason I think George probably wasn't true Gypsy was because I don't believe his gypsy family would have allowed my Dad to be deserted, even if his father had gone off, his gypsy family would have looked after him, wouldn't they? George was probably just a poor man, who did what he could to survive.

I am also considering doing the DNA testing to see whether I can connect in that way but I'm not sure how accurate this is.

Again thank you for your reply Rob.

Sandra

[rob g]

Hi. Sandra. Sorry for the late reply. A son visited. In Kendal the shows are at the sands car park by the river. My son lives in Lancaster. I will ask where the show stay there. Cunningham is a old traveller name. Locke. Is a Irish name. Most Romany folk hawked dukkerd ..told fortunes. Worked  seasonally on farms or were General dealers/ horse. Tin Smith's etc. A gene test can be expensive.but may help. My Lee family tree goes back to 1600s.  See who turns up in yours first. But try Romany genes site.and Romany jib.both very good. If I can help feel free to contact me. Cushty bocht..good luck. Rob

[sandy.l]

Thank you for the information Rob and for all of your help.

I think I may drive over to Lancaster ( I live in York) and look through the electoral rolls for Bridge Lane & St Leonardsgate in the 30's, if they were staying there for any length of time then they could be listed. I would also like to see the parish records for Lancaster Priory as my grandmother Emily/Helen/Nellie was buried in the RC section of Lancaster cemetery so she may have been baptised there even if she wasn't officially registered. I found a family of Cunninghams, Andrew & Elizabeth, living around Kendal and Lancaster at the turn of the century, and they had many children but I haven't been able to find official records for all of their children, potentially making my Emily one of their children. They were quite a notorious couple according to the newspaper archives, and I have connected to a couple of their descendants already, I think between us we have located only 7 or 8 of their 13 children, some being baptised over in Barnard Castle, some in Lancaster. They are of the right age group to be her parents or her uncle & aunt, possibly even her grandparents if one of their own children had their children young.

It's all such a mystery but I am determined to find what happened to them all and where they came from!

Many thanks again
Sandra

[sandy.l]

Hi Rob
Thought I would update you with my recent findings!
I took the AncestryDNA test and that has helped me identify my George Alfred Davies. It turns out he was born in Worcester 1903 to George Davies, a general hawker and Norah Davies/Phillips formerly O'Shea. Norah was also a hawker, the daughter of Catholic Irish immigrants born in Bristol 1868. I have since found several newspaper reports for various members of the family and they were described as gypsies in some of them. George senior is a bit of a mystery still as he says he was born at sea on the 1901 census but because I can now connect to a specific family of Davies's through the DNA matches, I believe he was actually born in Dilwyn, Herefordshire in 1855, son of a agricultural labourer. I'm still trying to identify my grandmother Emily or Helen Cunningham but I still believe she will be connected to the Cunningham family I found in Lancaster as they seem to be a similar family and maybe travelled together.

I have been fortunate to make contact with descendants of George Alfred's siblings and am currently discovering that Dad would have been part of a huge family in the Worcester area so I'm puzzled as to why George Alfred didn't take him to one of his sisters or something like that but I guess I may never know. And what he was doing up in Lancaster and Kendal is another mystery! One of my new cousins is very keen to unravel all of this too and is going to do the DNA test so that will (hopefully) confirm we are definitely related and we are working together on our shared family history!

It's all fascinating stuff!
Sandra