James Gillies

[loobylooayr]

Ok bear with me folks but with the suspected name change from John to James Gillies how about a Joseph to Robert ??
Long long  shot I know but there is a 4 year old Joseph Gillis on the 1861 Census living at Inchberry Hill Farmhouse  Rothes and his place of birth is Aberdeenshire , Aberchirder. He is recorded as being the Great Grandson of the Head of house.

GILLIS   William   Head   W     82   Farmer 16 Acres    Morayshire - Rothes   
GILLIS   Margaret   Dau   U     59   Housekeeper    Morayshire - Rothes       
GILLIS   John   Son   W     54   Farmer With Father    Morayshire - Rothes       
GILLIS   Margaret   Grndau   U     20   Agricultural Labourer    Morayshire - Rothes       
GILLIS   Ann   Grndau   U    17   Agricultural Labourer    Morayshire - Rothes       
GILLIS   Helen   Grndau   U    15   Agricultural Labourer    Morayshire - Rothes       
RIACH   William   Ggrson     4m       Morayshire - Rothes       
GILLIS   George   Ggrson    8   Scholar    Morayshire - Elgin       
GILLIS   Joseph   Ggrson     4       Aberdeenshire - Aberchirder


Added - Just realised that this family have been mentioned by Forfarian and that William Gillis is the Grandfather of the Joseph Gillies/Gillis/Gilosh who died in 1858.

Looby

[Annette7]

I really believe you have hit the nail on the head, Looby!   Was a bit dubious at first regarding change of name from Joseph to Robert (but then again, he may have been born as Robert and family called him Joseph - who knows).

However, George Gillies aged 8 in 1861, married in 1873 and his father is given as - wait for it - Joseph Gillies, Ploughman (deceased).   As with Robert/Joseph, can find no baptism for said George.   The problem is that the marriage certificate is virtually illegible and although I can read the name of his father (just) I cannot make out anything at all for the name of his mother.   The words there appear longer to me than 'Ann Asher' so perhaps Joseph had George with someone else.  So George would appear to be a brother (or half-brother) of Robert (Joseph).

Anyway, I have contacted SP and explained the problem and that it is his mothers details I am particularly interested in.   If they cannot provide a clearer copy perhaps they are able to read what it says for his mother.

Will post further when I hear back from them.

Annette

[Benny Gillies]

The marriage record of Robert Gillies 17th October St Andrews Lhanbryde to Ann Cameron states his residence as Coxton and his father as Joseph Gillies Ploughman (Deceased)
His mother is listed as Ann Gillies M.S. Asher (Deceased)
Hope this makes things clearer.

[Forfarian]

That's a very interesting idea. I checked the SP index and there is only one death of a Joseph Gillies born 1856 plus or minus 3 years - and that is Joseph Wilson Gillies, son of James Gillies and Elisabeth Don, born 1853 at Kinnaird, Perthshire. So it's anyone's guess what became of that 4-year-old in 1861.

One slight fly in the ointment is that a 4-year-old in 1861 would be just 17 in 1874, which is extraordinarily young for a farm labourer to marry. Even 19, his claimed age on his marriage certificate, is very young.

Also Aberchirder is in the parish of Marnoch, which is in Banffshire, not Aberdeenshire.

[Annette7]

Benny Gillies - yes, was well aware of Robert's given parents but if the 'Joseph' aged 4 g/grandson found by Looby was actually your Robert was trying to see if the George Gillies 8, also a g/grandson, was also a son of Joseph Gillies, Ploughman and to see who was given as his mother, i.e. was she also named Ann Asher, or was it possibly slightly different such as different first name or different surname.   The only occasion when Robert's parents are given are at his marriage - when he died aged 91 in 1945 the informant clearly didn't know these details as his parents details are blank.

Joseph Gillies are thin on the ground as has been found and to now know that Georges' father was also a Joseph Gillies, Ploughman (deceased) seemed to much of a coincidence to ignore.   Plus the 4 year old Joseph in 1861 effectively 'disappears' at the time when Robert first appears by this name in census in 1871.

Forfarian - I noticed at the outset that Robert would only have been 17 at marriage (not 19) but his age in 1871 was 14, 1881 24, 1891 34, 1901 45 so he was pretty consistent with a circa birthdate of 1857 hence the 4 year old 'Joseph' in 1861 looking a strong possibility for him. 

Clearly, working 'inside the box' from given facts is not panning out so one then has to start looking 'outside the box' so to speak.

What we now know is that Robert's father was a Joseph Gillies, ploughman, George (bc.1853) was also a son of a Joseph Gillies, ploughman, the only likely candidate for such Joseph died in 1858 (single), son of a James (son of William), and that in 1861 living with William the household includes 2 g/grandsons i.e. George 8 and Joseph (later Robert?) 4, who are both known to be sons of Joseph Gillies, ploughman.

Phew, hope I've explained that clearly enough.

Annette       

[Forfarian]

Forfarian - I noticed at the outset that Robert would only have been 17 at marriage (not 19) but his age in 1871 was 14, 1881 24, 1891 34, 1901 45 so he was pretty consistent with a circa birthdate of 1857 hence the 4 year old 'Joseph' in 1861 looking a strong possibility for him. 

Yes, indeed.

[loobylooayr]

That's a very interesting idea. I checked the SP index and there is only one death of a Joseph Gillies born 1856 plus or minus 3 years - and that is Joseph Wilson Gillies, son of James Gillies and Elisabeth Don, born 1853 at Kinnaird, Perthshire. So it's anyone's guess what became of that 4-year-old in 1861.

One slight fly in the ointment is that a 4-year-old in 1861 would be just 17 in 1874, which is extraordinarily young for a farm labourer to marry. Even 19, his claimed age on his marriage certificate, is very young.

Also Aberchirder is in the parish of Marnoch, which is in Banffshire, not Aberdeenshire.

Not being acquainted with the area of Aberchirder I only posted what appeared on the transcription of the 1861 Census - it would require Benny to use SP credits and double check the original. Perhaps it's not even Aberchirder??

What puzzles me about this boy Joseph Gillies aged 4 is that if this age is accurate he would have been born circa 1856/1857 when there should have been a Statutory Birth Record  - I can't find one so far. Also he appears to be missing from the 1871 Census - but a boy called Robert Gillies same approx. year of birth  appears in LLandbryde working as a farm servant. His place of birth is Rothes , the same place young Joseph is living ten years earlier. We always advise that Census info is only as accurate as the knowledge of the person who provided it. In this case perhaps, and it is of course perhaps, the head of household was unaware of Robert Gillies place of birth and gave the enumerator the name of the place that Robert had come to them from??
Equally just as Robert Gillies materialises as a 14 year old in 1871, Joseph Gillies aged 4 vanishes, I cannot find a suitable death record either.

As for marrying at age 17 ? And lying and claiming to be 19? I agree seems young but who knows?    Robert's age on 1881 and 1891 Census still tallies with a 1856/1857 birth. When he died however in 1945, he died on 8th December, he is recorded as 91 making a year of 1854 (I parted with a few credits to look at the original) . Sadly his parents details are blank - the death is registered by his son in law Wm. Mitchell , who obviously didn't know the names and again perhaps could have been mistaken with his father-in-laws age ?? All supposition.

Interestingly, according to Familysearch records in 1891 there were 15 people called Gillies living in New Spynie parish. As I said earlier I do not know any of this area so have no clue how big or widespread that could be. But what I did notice was that 6 of them were Robert and his family. Another 2 of them are George Gillies, illegitimate son of Joseph Gillies, and wife Elizabeth (perhaps with children).

Looby

[Forfarian]

Re Aberchirder - I was pretty sure it isn't in Aberdeenshire - Marnoch has Inverkeithy, Forglen and Alvah between it and Aberdeenshire - but there could have been an enclave of Aberdeenshire around there so I did check the Statistical Account and with Fullarton's Gazetteer of 1848, and neither makes any reference to Aberchirder (aka Foggyloan!) or any part of it being in Aberdeenshire.

New Spynie is pretty small - Fullarton says it is about 8 square miles. The village of Bishopmill, now shown on maps as effectively a northern suburb of Elgin, is in the parish of New Spynie.

[loobylooayr]

I think Forfarian that I might see how many credits I have left and look at the original 1861. Odd that the transcription has Aberdeenshire - Aberchirder if Aberchirder was never in that county!!
It could be poor handwriting to blame .
It has also occurred to me that me are accepting the name Joseph Gillies on that Census as being Gospel.....might be that someone made a mistake and the child wasn't a Joseph at all   

Looby