Robert Brown birth certificate - 2 April 1861. Help.

[DecimaHQ]

I am currently attempting to locate the birth certificate of my great-grandfather, Robert Brown who married Isabella Sterling in St. Patrick’s Chapel, Glasgow on 7 September 1883. I live in Londonderry in Northern Ireland and both of my great grandparents died in the city - Robert on 13 July 1916 and Isabella on 27 December 1938. I cannot locate a birth certificate for Robert anywhere in Ireland and I am assuming that he may have originated from Scotland. Robert’s parents, James Brown and Catherine McKeenichan (?), are listed on his marriage certificate. I have also found no information on Robert’s parents in Ireland. I would be immensely grateful if anyone could help locate Robert’s birth certificate or the marriage certificate of his parents. Robert was born on 2 April 1861. I do not think that Isabella was born in Scotland – her father was a journeyman from England and he and his wife had three children in Londonderry between 1868 and 1872. There is no further record of her parents after those dates. There is no birth certificate for Isabella in Ireland even though he place of birth is listed as Londonderry on the 1881 Scottish census for Glasgow.

I cannot currently access the Scottish records website – scotlandspeople.gov.uk - and I would be very grateful if anyone can assist me in my search.

[flst]

Does Robert's marriage certificate /death certificate indicate that his parents were married? If they were, you'd expect to see his mother's name as Catherine Brown m.s.McKeenichan. The absence of m.s. would lead to the conclusion that he was illegitimate. If so, his birth might be registered under his mother's maiden name. Also, what was James' occupation?
flst

[Forfarian]

If he was born in Scotland in 1861 he should be listed in the IGI at https://familysearch.org/search/collection/igi but you will still need to view the original at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk

[loobylooayr]

Hi DecimalHQ and welcome to Rootschat 

You seem quite positive on Roberts DOB- 2nd April 1861. Can I ask where you found this info?

Looby

[avm228]

Have you found Robert in any census indicating a birthplace?  If so, does it indicate Ireland or Scotland?

I am no expert in Irish research but as I understand it civil registration in Ireland began in 1864, so one would not expect to find a birth certificate for an 1861 birth. (Baptism is a separate issue, of course).

[DecimaHQ]

Hi DecimalHQ and welcome to Rootschat 

You seem quite positive on Roberts DOB- 2nd April 1861. Can I ask where you found this info?

Looby

Thank you Looby : )
My grandmother recorded the birthdates and deaths of her parents and family in her miniature Bible. Perhaps I should widen my search in case the dates are inaccurate.

[DecimaHQ]

Have you found Robert in any census indicating a birthplace?  If so, does it indicate Ireland or Scotland?

I am no expert in Irish research but as I understand it civil registration in Ireland began in 1864, so one would not expect to find a birth certificate for an 1861 birth. (Baptism is a separate issue, of course).

Goodness, I am such a novice. The 1911 Irish census lists Robert's birthplace as Derry City, but given his connections to Scotland and the absence of an Irish birth certificate I was wondering if the birthplace listed in the census was incorrect. I never knew that civil registration in Ireland only began in 1864. That would explain the issue surrounding his birth records. I'm so grateful for your help and I feel so badly about my mistake, sorry. Do marriage certificates also apply to the 1864 date in Ireland? Thank you all for your kind help.

[Elwyn Soutter]

Is this Robert and Isabella in Derry in the 1911 census? (Length of marriage fits with the information you have given). If so, both are recorded as born in the city.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Londonderry_Urban__4_/St__Columb_s_Wells/603995/

So as has been mentioned for pre 1864 births you would need to rely on church baptism information. Try Long Tower records on the NLI site:

http://registers.nli.ie/parishes

[loobylooayr]

Hi again,
Yes I would suggest that you should take that exact dob with a wee pinch of salt. It could be that your grandmother had it spot on ....then again she could have been a year or a month or so out.

Taking Elwyn's find on the 1911 Census into consideration, if that is Robert and Isabella I would also look for the couple on the 1901 Census and see where they gave as place of birth on it. Naturally this is not an exact science  , as people didn't always tell the truth on Censuses.
  Looby