help finding GGGM's illegitimate child

[Poole Conundrum]

Hi all, long time lurker of the forums but finally hit a brick wall and need some help!

My great-grandmother recently told me about her older sister - being the eldest this really threw me; She cannot remember her surname, or married name, so I have very little to go off, any help would be really appreciated

- Martha Pritchard (B. 1884, Shrewsbury) changed name to Carswell in 1901 when her mother remarried (1911 I think lived in Wales) . . . Married Samuel in 1920 In Collyhurst Manchester
- Samuel Tiplady (B. 1886, Manchester) - went on to have GGM 1921

- Martha had her illegitimate child, Frances, prior to being married in 1920
- When 'Martha' got married, she was known as 'pattie' - so the child's mother could be any variation of Martha/Pattie Pritchard/Carswell

My GGM believes Frances was born in Manchester (take this with a pinch of salt) and was 'a bit older than her'
She went on to marry a baker/confectioner who owned his own store on Ashton Old Road, Manchester and they had 2 children, a boy and girl.
I think the girl was 'Freda', however this is based of a photo of Freda dated 1941 to 'grandma Pattie & grandpa Samuel'.

Frances has passed a way a number of years ago and GGM thinks she might be buried in Philips Park Cemetery



I know it's next to nothing to go on, but it is the last piece of the puzzle and driving me crazy! any insight would be so helpful


EDIT:
My biggest concern is that Martha used the fathers surname for Frances - How likely would this have been during that time?

[avm228]

Welcome

Have you seen the 1916 (Monmouth) birth of Frances Pritchard, mother's maiden name Pritchard, coming up on FreeBMD?  That seems the closest match with what you've said.

How old was the child in the 1941 photo?  Under the rules of this site we don't name people who may still be alive - but have you searched for a birth with a child of that name, mother's maiden name Pritchard (and alternatively mmn Carswell) on FreeBMD at the relevant time?

[lancsann]

This would appear to be Frances birth taken from Lancashirebmd
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1906
Surname   Forename(s)   Sub-District   Registers At   Mother's Maiden Name   Reference
CARSWELL   Frances M   Chorlton-on-Medlock   Archives+, Manchester Central Library       CHO/207/19

Frances May on FREEBMD

no father named on her marriage registration

there are 2 children born reg district Manchester N with mmn = Carswell and surname the same as mother Frances spouse, neither named Freda

[Poole Conundrum]

Welcome

Have you seen the 1916 (Monmouth) birth of Frances Pritchard, mother's maiden name Pritchard, coming up on FreeBMD?  That seems the closest match with what you've said.

How old was the child in the 1941 photo?  Under the rules of this site we don't name people who may still be alive - but have you searched for a birth with a child of that name, mother's maiden name Pritchard (and alternatively mmn Carswell) on FreeBMD at the relevant time?

Yes I felt the Wales connection might come in, but not knowing when Martha moved from Wales to Manchester was holding me back. I may just have to buy the birth certificate and see what's said on it
The child in the photo is a baby - I would say no more than 1yr old so birth could be 1940/41 depending on the month; I have searched for baby a few times but as Frances was married I would need the married name to search

[Poole Conundrum]

This would appear to be Frances birth taken from Lancashirebmd
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1906
Surname   Forename(s)   Sub-District   Registers At   Mother's Maiden Name   Reference
CARSWELL   Frances M   Chorlton-on-Medlock   Archives+, Manchester Central Library       CHO/207/19

Frances May on FREEBMD

no father named on her marriage registration

there are 2 children born reg district Manchester N with mmn = Carswell and surname the same as mother Frances spouse, neither named Freda

I do have Martha/Pattie on a 1911 census in Wales (I think!), without a child, however if I could locate her on a different census I would be happy to consider this option.
She was a servant from a young age through the census's so I can imagine she moved about a lot

I may end up just buying the certificates of the potential births so every option is welcomed

[lancsann]

is this not Frances marriage

Name:   Frances May Carswell
Birth Year:   abt 1906
Age:   21
Marriage Date:   18 Apr 1927
Parish:   Newton Heath, St Wilfrid
Parish as it Appears:   S Wilfrid, Newton Heath
Spouse's Name:   William Clarke
Spouse's Father's Name:   Joseph Clerke (mistranscribed there is no father named on the image)

William was a confectioner

I can't find an appropriate Carswell marriage for her mother in or around 1901

[Poole Conundrum]

is this not Frances marriage

Name:   Frances May Carswell
Birth Year:   abt 1906
Age:   21
Marriage Date:   18 Apr 1927
Parish:   Newton Heath, St Wilfrid
Parish as it Appears:   S Wilfrid, Newton Heath
Spouse's Name:   William Clarke
Spouse's Father's Name:   Joseph Clerke (mistranscribed there is no father named on the image)

William was a confectioner

I can't find an appropriate Carswell marriage for her mother in or around 1901

Sorry for the confusion, Martha's mother married in 1886 but it wasn't until the 1901 census that she took her step-fathers surname - Martha was only married once to Samuel in 1920

It certainly seems like a strong contender - I would have to find a different 1911 census that included both Martha & Frances on it

13 years does seem a long time after marriage to have a child - but then again stranger things have happened in this family tree so nothing surprises me now

Thank-you for your help, it's definitely giving me a starting point

[Poole Conundrum]

is this not Frances marriage

Name:   Frances May Carswell
Birth Year:   abt 1906
Age:   21
Marriage Date:   18 Apr 1927
Parish:   Newton Heath, St Wilfrid
Parish as it Appears:   S Wilfrid, Newton Heath
Spouse's Name:   William Clarke
Spouse's Father's Name:   Joseph Clerke (mistranscribed there is no father named on the image)

William was a confectioner

I can't find an appropriate Carswell marriage for her mother in or around 1901

Sorry for the confusion, Martha's mother married in 1886 but it wasn't until the 1901 census that she took her step-fathers surname - Martha was only married once to Samuel in 1920

It certainly seems like a strong contender - I would have to find a different 1911 census that included both Martha & Frances on it

13 years does seem a long time after marriage to have a child - but then again stranger things have happened in this family tree so nothing surprises me now

Thank-you for your help, it's definitely giving me a starting point

Her marriage banns state 117 Thornton street as her address
the 1911 census has
Thomas Burton (head, 55)
Harriet Burton (wife, 56)
Sarah Green (border, 55)
Frances May Carswell (Boarder, 5)

I'm not sure if it's likely that Frances would belong to Sarah Green (I would have to find out how likely it would be to board a 5yr old child alone)

However, Samuel's (Frances' step-dad) had a sister living at 114 Thornton street in 1911 - I am not sure if this is related or a strange coincidence

It's definitely got me questioning! Thank you

[lancsann]

there is a Martha Pritchard living in Church Stretton (where she appears to have been born) age 17 as a servant to a Tipton family on the 1901 census