Convicted in Scotland and transported to Australia

[Beeonthebay]

Sorry about that, I've attached the correct link now:

https://thescottishaustralian.wordpress.com/2015/08/25/radicals-martyrs-and-scottish-convicts-in-colonial-australia/

Thank you very much, that was very interesting and enlightening.

[RJ_Paton]

Sorry about that, I've attached the correct link now:

https://thescottishaustralian.wordpress.com/2015/08/25/radicals-martyrs-and-scottish-convicts-in-colonial-australia/

Whilst it is true to say that Scots Law is fundamentally different I'm not sure that his argument holds true.

For example he states

Overall, about 8200 of the convicts in Australia’s eastern colonies, and between 570 and 700 in Western Australia, were born in Scotland, which recorded about a quarter of England’s transportation rate.

To say that Scotland transported only a quarter of those that England did does not give a complete picture.

Given the disparity in the populations of the two countries one would expect that Scotland transported a similar proportion i.e approx 1/10 rather than the much higher 1/4 - from these figures, statistically it could be argued that Scotland transported a much higher proportion of its criminal populace.

[CaileanMac]

I've re-read the link and don't really understand how you've come to that conclusion.

I'd point out though that the population discrepancy between Scotland and England has varied throughout history. In 1811 Scotland's population was about 1/5 that of England. Today it is about 1/10.

[RJ_Paton]

I've re-read the link and don't really understand how you've come to that conclusion.

I'd point out though that the population discrepancy between Scotland and England has varied throughout history. In 1811 Scotland's population was about 1/5 that of England. Today it is about 1/10.

The author appears to have assumed that as Scotland sent only a quarter of the number of transportees that England did that Scots Law was fundamentally different.

While the latter is certainly true, given the disparity in the population figures of the two countries it should be expected that Scotland would send significantly fewer transportees. 

In 1811 the population figures show Scotland had a population of 1,805,864 while the combined figure for England and Wales was 10,164,256. (approx 1/ 6)

Accepting that, for debate, the respective populations each had a similar criminal element then you would expect a similar proportion to be transported ie approx 1/6 not the 1/4 that the author uses - but if you use the  1 /4  and then look at the population figures you have to consider that if that is correct then proportionally Scots Courts sent more for Transportation.

[majm]

Hi there,

If you look at the NSW penal colony, and then at the native place, then you need to look at the period 1787 to 1840, and until 1825 that included Van Diemen's Land.  You may need to find the Australian archival records to confirm those native places to check the percentages of Scottish born convicts transported 'beyond the seas'.

If you look at the Administrative structure of the penal colonies of NSW and VDL, then you need to know that UNTIL the appointment of a SCOTTISH governor, that all convict ships went firstly to NSW.  The Scottish governor was the first of the Military governors, and he organised for some transports to go directly to VDL.  Earlier governors were Navy men, for example the last Navy man to reign over the NSW Penal colony was William Bligh (he of the Mutiny of the Bounty fame).   Bligh was ousted by a coup d'etat (the Garrison forces rose up and deposed him). 

Lachlan Macquarie replaced the regime that ousted Bligh.  Macquarie's reign resulted in an effective administration being established, so that under Macquarie  there were general orders re BDM records, regulations re building structures, fence lines, slops, clothing, co-habitation and inheritance issues, revised approach to marriage ('bigamy' v effective termination of a marriage 7 year rule matters v separation by .... beyond the seas) and commencement of democracy with separation of judiciary from dictatorship by governor .... etc etc etc. 

http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/macquarie-lachlan-2419
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/digital-gallery/lachlan-macquarie-visionary-and-builder
http://www.mq.edu.au/macquarie-archive/

As my own family history records have been preserved by earlier generations, I can assure you that those family members who were of Scottish origins were quite insisting that "Scotch" heritage is distinct from English.   I also have Welsh and Cornish and Irish ancestors arriving in NSW in the Macquarie era, and they too were as concerned for their new life to acknowledge that they were NOT English .....    It is not until the decade after transportation ceased that any "English" ancestors of mine arrive in NSW....   

Family history is an interesting journey, and I have been involved in mine since the late 1950s .... and I hope to continue for quite a number of years yet. 

Cheers, and many thanks for that wonderful article.  Food for Thought....

JM


   

[djct59]

According to my research, transportation was always less popular in Scotland. By 1823 my information is that the percentage transported to the Colonies from Scotland was less than 4% of the total, although statistically you would expect it to be over 15%. Under Scots law an accused could petition for banishment and this was often granted, especially if the complainers concurred.

Tom Devine's Scotland's Empire 1600-1815 has (see pages 105-106) 700 as the total number transported in the period when England and Wales transported 35,000 - 2%, which I suspect is a little too low, although I do have it recorded that no-one convicted in Scotland was sentenced to transportation between 1795 and 1799. In fact, evidence shows that the prosecution of crime other than at the most serious level was a fairly low priority outside the major population centres in the era when local burgesses paid for the running of local prisons.

[CaileanMac]

I've re-read the link and don't really understand how you've come to that conclusion.

I'd point out though that the population discrepancy between Scotland and England has varied throughout history. In 1811 Scotland's population was about 1/5 that of England. Today it is about 1/10.

The author appears to have assumed that as Scotland sent only a quarter of the number of transportees that England did that Scots Law was fundamentally different.

While the latter is certainly true, given the disparity in the population figures of the two countries it should be expected that Scotland would send significantly fewer transportees. 

In 1811 the population figures show Scotland had a population of 1,805,864 while the combined figure for England and Wales was 10,164,256. (approx 1/ 6)

Accepting that, for debate, the respective populations each had a similar criminal element then you would expect a similar proportion to be transported ie approx 1/6 not the 1/4 that the author uses - but if you use the  1 /4  and then look at the population figures you have to consider that if that is correct then proportionally Scots Courts sent more for Transportation.

Ah yes, I understand your line of thinking now. Without knowing the author's source though it is difficult to comment further.

In the work that I've ever done on the subject, unscientific as it is, coming across Scottish convicts is pretty unusual. I honestly would be very surprised if Scotland did in fact send more convicts as a proportion of it's population when compared with England and Wales.

[RJ_Paton]

In the work that I've ever done on the subject, unscientific as it is, coming across Scottish convicts is pretty unusual. I honestly would be very surprised if Scotland did in fact send more convicts as a proportion of it's population when compared with England and Wales.

So would I  .... as djct59 has posted, Banishment was an option used by the Scottish Courts whether it was from Burgh level through to National Level and it wasn't until the time of Sir William Rae that transportaion replaced Banishment and even that was replaced in 1857 by Penal Servitude. Minor offenders in Scotland tended to be dealt with summarily either through monetary fines or corporal punishment although repeat offenders could find themselves dealt with quite ruthlessly (by todays standards).

[Yonks Ago]

Hi there, tbelow is a good link to Scottish Convicts to Australia
http://www.educationscotland.gov.uk/scotsandaustralia/convicts/scottishconvicts.asp

cheers
Yonks