John Balne and Ellizabeth Boucher - origins

[lucymags]

These two got married in 1758 in Bristol.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NFY2-8LZ

I'm interested in finding anything more about their forebears, in paricular the link which I think exists from John Balne back to Yorkshire (Snaith), where I it seems they all originated from.

I haven't started on the Bouchers and know nothing about them at this stage. Any information welcome.

[DRH123]

A John Balne was apprenticed to his father James Balne, a merchant tailor, in 1747. Master's wife Betty.  He became a Burgess (Freeman of the city) in 1755, qualifying both by inheritance and having served an apprenticeship, and was himself described as a Merchant Tailor. 

James Balne, Victualler, became a burgess in 1740 by vote of council - which basically means he bought the right and would fit with him coming from elsewhere.

There was also another James, a labourer, who became a burgess by right of inheritance from his father James Balne, victualler, in 1774. There are no other Balnes in the burgess records so, unless there's another with a different spelling, this must be the same father.

Unless your John had a completely different occupation this looks likely to be the right man.

David

[lucymags]

Thanks, DRH - this is great information!

I'm just a little confused about the Jameses though, so you you please confirm or correct my understanding of the following.

John is son of James (tailor), whose wife is Betty.

James (victualler) becomes burgess in 1740 (probably coming from elsewhere). His son James (labourer) becomes a burgess via his father in 1774.

John (by now a tailor himself) becomes a Burgess in 1755 - by inheritance and apprenticeship. (And marries Elizabeth in 1758.)

What I don't understand is whether you mean James the victualler is the same person as James the tailor.. but this can't be right because he would be quite a lot older than brother John?

Sorry for being dense. What does seem likely is that John's father was called James, at least!

[DRH123]

Yes, I do think it probable that the two fathers called James are the same person, even if they were listed with different occupations.  There's only one earlier James listed in the Burgess Books and you couldn't pass the right to a son or take an apprentice unless you were already a burgess. I suppose if a merchant tailor was more merchant than tailor he could also have been importing "vittles" and been called a victualler at times.

(It's James the labourer who would be brother to John. He probably was a similar age but didn't take up the option to be a burgess earlier because as a labourer it wasn't of much benefit. It did however include the right to vote and there was a rush of enrollments at the same time in 1774. That would be because there was  an election pending and the candidates would pay the enrollment fee in return for a promise to vote their way!)

Another option is that there were two older James but one was registered under a different spelling that I haven't spotted. Have you come across many variations? (I did wonder if the "l" could be silent. There were several burgesses called Bawn or Baun, including a James who became a burgess in 1751, but he was a tiler and plasterer and John the merchant tailor must have been a burgess before 1747.) 

As you say, whether there were two James or not, John's parents were James and Betty from the apprenticeship record. But if there were other Balne families around then there may have been other Johns. Do you have any other info about your John?

I notice the 1758 wedding was by licence. I don't know anything about Bristol marriage licences but the RO may have a record and that may, just possibly, mention John's occupation or relatives. Just the fact that he had a licence suggests he was relatively well off and fits with being a merchant tailor.

David

[lucymags]

Ah, that makes more sense - and interesting about the rush to enrol at election time!

Unfortunately I have little else. Most of the Balnes seem to originate (or at least congregate in the 17th C) around Snaith. Balne was a parish of Snaith, now a separate village or town.

I am working from a son John (or possibly Jonathan - being referred to as Jno.) Balne who is the son of the Bristol John, who seems to have moved (collecting wife and kids along the way) to Poole and then to Fordingbridge in Hampshire.

These seem to be death records for John the son and his wife Mary:
John Balne who dies in Poole in 1842: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2JQM-WQ8 - seems likely to be this one.
A Mary Balne who dies in Poole in 1838: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2NRQ-PJJ

And I'm thinking that his is probably the burial record for John the father:
buried in Bristol on 13 June 1766: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J86T-6M2

(Quite likely unrelated, but the earliest Balne I could find in Somerset is Richard Balne, who is present for the christening of daughter Elyzabeth in 1610: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J31W-P9W and dies in 1629:https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JDQ1-GZP)

As for the pronunciation and spelling: I believe that the village in Yorkshire is pronounced "Bawn", but that my closer ancestors pronounced it "Ballin" (west country influence?). Hence quite possible that some surnames were written as Bawn or Baun... but anyway, the one who ended up in Hampshire via Dorset spelt his name Balne and passed it down spelt thus.

I don't know anything about their occupations other than a son of John Jr was apparently a carpenter... The two sons' names were John Humphrey Pinhorn B and Vincent George Boucher B - each taking a name from mother and grandmother, so that fits.

[DRH123]

(Quite likely unrelated, but the earliest Balne I could find in Somerset is Richard Balne, who is present for the christening of daughter Elyzabeth in 1610: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J31W-P9W and dies in 1629:https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JDQ1-GZP)

Try FreeREG. They give 150 entries in Somerset with that exact spelling, the earliest being a Richard buried in 1562. Nearly all are in the north of the county so it is feasible that the few in Bristol are relatively local.

[lucymags]

Thanks again, David (sorry, didn't notice your name signature earlier). You have been super helpful. And now that I have discovered the new imporoved FreeReg, that will become very useful too. I can see many happy hours ahead trawling their database and googling villages I'd never heard of. 

Mel

[trb0549]

I came across a reference to RootsChat and decided to check it out and saw your discussion. Since it was free I decided to try it. In a nutshell I gathered that James and Betty Balne (from Bristol?) had a son John who married Elizabeth Boucher (m 1758). Their son John(Jonathan?)(1760-1742) moved to Poole and Married Mary Pinhorne(1762-1838) from Fordingbridge. Amognst their children were Vincent George Boucher Balne & John Humphrey Pinhorne Balne.
I had back to the John-Mary Pinhorne but wasn't sure before then. JHP Balne is my GGG grandfather.
I find it very difficult finding connections before the late 1700's. I have seen brief items of a baptism or marriage of a Balne in the early to late 1600's in and around Gowdall which is not that far from the village of Balne. I don't know which came 1st, the town name or the surname. The earliest Balne I think I have seen is William Henry Balne who was a retinue in the battle of Agincourt in 1415. Not sure what exactly a retinue was but it interested me because my brother, father, grandfather and GGG uncle (JHP Balne's son) were all named the same. I don't know if I ever will but on my bucket list is to find a connection back to him. Also back to the Balne's of West Riding Yorkshire.
There are also Balne's from Bath that I'd like to find a connection to. Giles Balne, father and son, were publishers. You can probably Goggle 'Gye and Balne' and find some info.
If you can, verify my assumptions of the bloodline as I have stated above. Also if you can explain what a retinue was. I looked up definition but it didn't help much.
  Tom

[lucymags]

Hi Tom

Yes, I think that is more or less what I have put together, except my records say that the son John (Jonathan?) died in June 1966, based on a burial record I found in FamilySearch https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J86T-6M2 (some guesswork involved though!). Also that the elder John probably had a brother, James, who died young, and the younger John a brother called Peter, born 1764, died 1765.

Facing the same difficulities as you found in tracing back prior to the 18th C, I have temporarily abandoned the Balnes to come back to later. What I'd really like to find is the connection between the Yorkshire Balnes (from Balne) and the Bath/Bristol Balnes. It even crossed my mind that perhaps they arose independently (with the Latin root balneo, etc. meaning baths - quite a coincidence that Bath also has warm springs, similar to Askern Spa not far from Balne, which is a likely origin of the name of that village). But perhaps the Yorkshire Balnes travelled south-west for some reason. 

The William Henry Balne at Agincourt, according to various sources I found, was Clerk of the King's Kitchen (i.e. he ran the kitchens): http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/agincourt.htm. Retinue is just a general word meaning advisor or assistant to an important person - in this case, the king, presumably!

I don't know whether you're able to see and follow all of the descendants of this line on Geni, but this is the profile I constructed for James: http://www.geni.com/people/James-Balne/6000000035947229466?from_flash=1&fsession_id=1441672831762&through=6000000025264823526
Others on Geni had already created some of the descendants but I just added to them as I found what appeared to be correct information.

I will keep looking but might not get back to the Balnes for a week or three... but please keep in touch on this matter because I am as keen as you are on finding those missing links!
 
Mel