Author Topic: Another search for Penzy...  (Read 3415 times)

Offline josey

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Another search for Penzy...
« on: Sunday 30 August 15 16:18 BST (UK) »
I would like some help, please, as I am having a last ditch search for the baptism of Philip Murray 1813. The family were Roman Catholic.

I have posted 2 earlier threads & had some good help.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=394242.msg2654754#msg2654754
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=659298.msg5049313#msg5049313

However, having previously come to believe the place was 'Senzy' I have had another look at the army record and now believe it was 'Penzy'. I attach both times that Philip's name was entered in the same hand on the pension record. In the second occurrence the 'P' of Philip looks identical to the 'P' of the beginning of the parish of birth but different to the first occurrence of Philip.   

I have since had this thought: although previously discussed that Philip was a clerk and would have noticed an error on his form, it COULD be that on return to Ireland as a baby/child, his parents died and Philip's knowledge of where he was born was just hearsay...and got corrupted meanwhile.

I found a marvellous resource
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/search/series/survey-kent
which details all the parishes in Kent and has maps for each volume.

Fresh eyes much appreciated before I give up ....  ;). Thank you.

Josey
Seeking: RC baptism Philip Murray Feb ish 1814 ? nr Chatham Kent.
IRE: Kik DRAY[EA], PURCELL, WHITE: Mea LYNCH: Tip MURRAY, SHEEDY: Wem ALLEN, ENGLISHBY; Dub PENROSE: Lim DUNN[E], FRAWLEY, WILLIAMS.
87th Regiment RIF: MURRAY
ENG; Marylebone HAYTER, TROU[W]SDALE, WILLIAMS,DUNEVAN Con HAMPTON, TREMELLING Wry CLEGG, HOLLAND, HORSEFIELD Coventry McGINTY
CAN; Halifax & Pictou: HOLLAND, WHITE, WILLIAMSON

Offline Jomot

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Re: Another search for Penzy...
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 30 August 15 20:17 BST (UK) »
Just a random thought - and bearing in mind that my Irish accent is admittedly dire - it couldn't be a mis-hearing of 'upon the sea' or 'open sea' could it? 
MORGAN: Glamorgan, Durham, Ohio. DAVIS/DAVIES/DAVID: Glamorgan, Ohio.  GIBSON: Leicestershire, Durham, North Yorkshire.  RAIN/RAINE: Cumberland.  TAYLOR: North Yorks. BOURDAS: North Yorks. JEFFREYS: Worcestershire & Northumberland. FORBES: Berwickshire, CHEESMOND: Durham/Northumberland. WINTER: Durham/Northumberland. SNOWBALL: Durham.

Offline Jebber

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Re: Another search for Penzy...
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 30 August 15 21:38 BST (UK) »
Could it be Pemsey? Kent Archaeological Society list Pemsey in their place names as in the parish of Brabourne, near Ashford.
CHOULES All ,  COKER Harwich Essex & Rochester Kent 
COLE Gt. Oakley, & Lt. Oakley, Essex.
DUNCAN Kent
EVERITT Colchester,  Dovercourt & Harwich Essex
GULLIVER/GULLOFER Fifehead Magdalen Dorset
HORSCROFT Kent.
KING Sturminster Newton, Dorset. MONK Odiham Ham.
SCOTT Wrabness, Essex
WILKINS Stour Provost, Dorset.
WICKHAM All in North Essex.
WICKHAM Medway Towns, Kent from 1880
WICKHAM, Ipswich, Suffolk.

Offline Richard Knott

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Re: Another search for Penzy...
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 30 August 15 22:53 BST (UK) »
Pevensey isn't even in Kent, let alone Chatham; but regiments were stationed at the barracks there during the Napoleonic War. Perhaps his father's regiment was at Chatham shortly afterwards/before, so he was just a bit muddled over places.

Richard
All the families I am researching are listed on the main page here:
www.64regencyancestors.com

Census: Crown Copyright www.nationalarchives.gov.uk


Offline josey

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Re: Another search for Penzy...
« Reply #4 on: Monday 31 August 15 11:12 BST (UK) »
Jomot, Jebber & Richard, thank you all very much for the new ideas - inspired. I will follow them all up & let you know.

Josey
Seeking: RC baptism Philip Murray Feb ish 1814 ? nr Chatham Kent.
IRE: Kik DRAY[EA], PURCELL, WHITE: Mea LYNCH: Tip MURRAY, SHEEDY: Wem ALLEN, ENGLISHBY; Dub PENROSE: Lim DUNN[E], FRAWLEY, WILLIAMS.
87th Regiment RIF: MURRAY
ENG; Marylebone HAYTER, TROU[W]SDALE, WILLIAMS,DUNEVAN Con HAMPTON, TREMELLING Wry CLEGG, HOLLAND, HORSEFIELD Coventry McGINTY
CAN; Halifax & Pictou: HOLLAND, WHITE, WILLIAMSON

Offline josey

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Re: Another search for Penzy...
« Reply #5 on: Friday 23 December 16 15:10 GMT (UK) »
Bringing this to the top again as I have found a baptism on ancestry [no image of the register sadly]. Westham is the next parish to Pevensey  :-\

Name:   Philip Murray
Gender:   Male
Birth Date:   10 Jun 1811
Baptism Date:   23 Jun 1811
Baptism Place:   Westham,Sussex,England
Father:   Js. Murray
Mother:   M.
FHL Film Number:   504419


I have tried to contact the Westham OPC via but the emails won't send from the contact page of the website
http://www.sussex-opc.org/index.php?k=497&t=parish

Perhaps his father's regiment was at Chatham shortly afterwards/before, so he was just a bit muddled over places.
This may easily be the case....
Seeking: RC baptism Philip Murray Feb ish 1814 ? nr Chatham Kent.
IRE: Kik DRAY[EA], PURCELL, WHITE: Mea LYNCH: Tip MURRAY, SHEEDY: Wem ALLEN, ENGLISHBY; Dub PENROSE: Lim DUNN[E], FRAWLEY, WILLIAMS.
87th Regiment RIF: MURRAY
ENG; Marylebone HAYTER, TROU[W]SDALE, WILLIAMS,DUNEVAN Con HAMPTON, TREMELLING Wry CLEGG, HOLLAND, HORSEFIELD Coventry McGINTY
CAN; Halifax & Pictou: HOLLAND, WHITE, WILLIAMSON

Offline josey

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Re: Another search for Penzy...
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 24 December 16 13:05 GMT (UK) »
Doesn't help with baptism but I feel pretty sure I have found Philip Murray in the 1841 census aged 25 [so 25 - 29], in army barracks in Newcastle-upon-Tyne. HO107 District Newcastle Upon Tyne Cavalry Artillery and Infantry Barracks Piece: 847 Book: 8 Folio: 4 Page Number: 2.

He is a corporal [I know from his army record he was a corporal from 27 Feb 1840 to 19 Nov 1843 & a member of the britregiments group told me in that 2/7/1841 depot of the 87th marched south from Newcastle, so I feel I am safe assuming it was the 87th at the barracks at the time of the census although it is not specified].

However, next to his name is another corporal, Daniel Murray also 25 [so 25 - 29] and am wondering whether this could be a brother. I have tried without success but can anyone find a baptism or army record for a Daniel Murray 1812 - 1816 - his parents could also be Philip's......I know the census states both born Ireland but it was an Irish regiment & I think that would have been assumed, rather than each individual soldier asked.

Many thanks, Josey
Seeking: RC baptism Philip Murray Feb ish 1814 ? nr Chatham Kent.
IRE: Kik DRAY[EA], PURCELL, WHITE: Mea LYNCH: Tip MURRAY, SHEEDY: Wem ALLEN, ENGLISHBY; Dub PENROSE: Lim DUNN[E], FRAWLEY, WILLIAMS.
87th Regiment RIF: MURRAY
ENG; Marylebone HAYTER, TROU[W]SDALE, WILLIAMS,DUNEVAN Con HAMPTON, TREMELLING Wry CLEGG, HOLLAND, HORSEFIELD Coventry McGINTY
CAN; Halifax & Pictou: HOLLAND, WHITE, WILLIAMSON

Offline grandarog

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Re: Another search for Penzy...
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 24 December 16 20:10 GMT (UK) »
Its either Penge if in Kent or Pevensey if its Sussex .Take your Pick.

Merry Christmas :D
WAGHORN/E
KENWARD
HARRIS
DIXON
MARSHALL
MERCER
CARE
FAGG
RUSSELL
WOODRUFF      

 All these  Families were Born and Bred in Kent

Offline Chris Doran

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Re: Another search for Penzy...
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 27 December 16 03:35 GMT (UK) »
I'm not sure where this gets you but for info: Penge, in Surrey in 1813, is a long way from Chatham, but so is Pevensey. Penge was largely commonland with very few houses, but there were encampments of gypsies, who could have been Irish, as could itinerant navvies working on the Croydon Canal through Penge, though this was completed by 1811. I've no idea where anyone would have gone for a Roman Catholic baptism. The nearest Anglican Church was St George, Beckenham, but I can't see a Philip Murray in what is readable of the registers for 1810-1815.
Researching Penge, Anerley, (incuding the Crystal Palace) and neighbouring parts of Beckenham, currently in London (Bromley), formerly Surrey and/or Kent.