Query with NSW Birth index

[Jomot]

Looking for the children of Thomas Black Underwood and Eliza Ann West, I found the following entries:

Joseph U Underwood, Father: Thomas B,  Mother: Ellen A,  District: Maitland.  Reg No: 8657/1858 
Joseph W Underwood, Father: Thomas,  Mother: Eliza.  Reg No: 2205/1858 2205 VOL 150

The child was probably called Joseph West Underwood so the first entry seems to have the correct father but the incorrect mother & middle initial, whereas the second entry corrects those details but omits both parents middle initial & also the district.

Can anyone advise why an entry would be registered under two different numbers?  I can find no trace of the child after this so wondered if the 2205/1858 should have been indexed as a death rather than a birth, but that reference relates to someone else entirely.

[sparrett]

This is a Church record of a Baptism/Christening

Joseph W UNDERWOOD
Father: Thomas,
Mother: Eliza.
Reg No: 2205/1858 2205 VOL 150

The system of Civil Registration was in place in the Colony in 1856.  This is the complying birth registration. There are apparently errors in the transcribing. The old documents were hard to read sometimes.

Joseph  U UNDERWOOD
Father: Thomas B,
Mother: Ellen A,
At  District: Maitland.
Reg No: 8657/1858

Another chatter will be able to offer a good deal more detail than I about the systems and how you may conduct further research into the listings.

However, a transcription of the death of the father will probably show the names and ages of all his children. The informant may have been his wife or one of his children.

8935/1889 UNDERWOOD Thomas B
Aged 60 Years
Died at  GLADESVILLE
Registered at   RYDE

Sue

[Jomot]

Many thanks for your reply.

So if I understand you correctly 2205/1858 2205 VOL 150 is the church baptism and 8657/1858
is the civil registration, hence the 'double' registration.  How interesting! 

The 1889 death is a different Thomas B Underwood though as my Thomas B was the informant for his fathers death in 1892 and died himself in 1915.  Both are buried at Sandgate Cemetery, Newcastle. 

His father, Joseph, lived to be 83 - not bad for a transported convict - although sadly his death certificate revealed that Thomas B had six deceased siblings I wasn't aware of, all of whom presumably died as infants as no names or dates were given for them and I cant find any registration for them either.

[majm]

Hi there,

One of those registrations is the civil birth registration and the other is the baptism record. 

Many of the Early Church Records were acquired by NSW BDM over a number of years, and finally bound into Volumes in the years before many of the clerical staff enlisted during WWI  (so, bound from around 1912-1915).

Early Church Records include baptisms and burials from 1787 (first fleet en route to NSW) and marriages (from Feb 1788) until at least 1856 (and in some instances, as late as Federation in 1901)  You can recognise them as they have the letter "V" as part of their reference no.

Civil registration commenced in March 1856.

The NSW BDM online index has their holdings of ECRs and the civil regos  indexed together.   Not all parish registers have been included in the ECRs.  In fact, Parish registers are not public records, but are Church records.  Many Denominations do permit access to their historic registers.

NSW Registrar General's Office (including NSW BDM) obtained its first type-writer in around 1918 or a little after that.

It was not until about 1930 that teams of volunteers who were familiar with the long hand style of writing used on NSW BDM records undertook the huge task of transcribing the (by then) well worn pages in those volumes.   Many of those volunteers worked tirelessly using natural daylight only.  Pages on original records recorded back as early as 1787 to as then recently as 1918 were often thumb marked, ink blotted, ink bled through to the reverse side, torn, and of course ....

in many different scribbles from the individual clerks at NSW BDM who in turn were NOT the original clerks recording the events as they happened. 

So there are recognised transcription mistakes in the records.   

It is often best, if you can, to strive to get to the original primary document, to see if you can transcribe it better than earlier attempts.

I have seen some strange transcriptions, completely different surnames .... occupations .... given names that simply don't make sense when you look at other connected documents.    However, the role of the transcriber is of course to transcribe what they see on the document in front of them and to expose that transcription to the team in which they are working, so that their efforts are checked and checked.   

If you were to consider spending pennies, I would expect the cheaper versions available from NSW BDM's Official transcribers would offer you the same info as on the real deal certificates.   Certainly there's no point at all in spending shillings when pennies gets you the same info, and in the instance of the 1858 ECR (Volume 150,  line 2205) you will get a 'typed' puter generated document from NSW BDM ..... well there's no reason to waste shillings....   

The civil registration (8657/1858) will contain information about when and where the parents married, their ages at the time of registering the birth, where they were each born, where the baby was born (often at their then home address) if the baby was present when the informant attended the deputy registrar's office to register the birth, the name of the midwife who assisted and sometimes other witnesses present at the birth, (mothers/mother's in law/cousins, etc) ....

Hope I have not bored you with this depth of detail.   

Cheers,  JM

[Jomot]

Hope I have not bored you with this depth of detail.   

Absolutely not, it's really interesting and I will definitely bookmark & re-read it.  Thank you for taking the time for such a detailed reply.  Incredible to think there are people still alive who were born when the Registrar General's Office got their first typewriter - and now here we are with the wonders of the internet!

[Jan Prit]

Hello all I am still trying to find the burial of Matthew and Sarah McElroy he was a convict and pardoned in N.S.W. he was a cooper of the Hope Inn Liverpool till 1839 then a A J Tebbut took over as the Licensee after him anyone familiar with this person or persons, having such a hard time in finding them and their burial.
Janet

[majm]

Hi there,

Various spellings for your chap's first name, surname, and his wife and child, so perhaps searching for his burial/death may need to include these variations.

July 1817 Michael McELROY or Mathew McELROY aged 23 years, born Dundalk, Ireland, arrived per ship Chapman, a labourer and Ploughman.

Nov 1821 Matthew McILROY, applied for mitigation of sentence

Sept 1825 Mathew McALROY Conditional Pardon
Sept 1825 Sarah McELROY, born in the colony, resident Parramatta, wife of Michael McILREY
Sept 1825 Mary Ann McELROY, born in the colony, resident Parramatta, child of Michael McILREY

Nov 1828 (NSW Census) McELROY and McILROY, households Kent St and also York St Sydney:
Mattw McELROY, York St as the householder,  with John McKENZIE aged 31 a stonemason.
Mary McELROY, York St, aged 7, born in the colony in the household of Matthew McELROY
Sarah McELROY, York St, aged 23, born in the colony, in the household of Matthew McELROY
Matthew McELROY aged 33, per Chapman, York St, a Publican
Michael CASSIDY, 62, per Daphne 1819, a servant to Matthew McILROY, householder of Kent St
John KERNS, 48, per Guildford 1818, a carpenter, lodger at Mrs McELROY, York St

So you are probably looking for a Roman Catholic burial .... have you found the burial for their daughter Mary?

JM

[Jan Prit]

Afternoon JM thanks so much for your input I didn't know this information. MaryAnn McElroy married a John Tindall on the 15/5/1839 Liverpool N.S.W. Australia, her death date is 29/12/1879 address Alma Street Darlington N.S.W. Burial date 30/12/1879 Necropolis Rookwood Cemetery N.S.W. son Edward Tindall was the Informant Campbell Street Newtown N.S.W. Its always been confusing this Death Transcription as a John McElroy is listed for her father not Matthew McElroy.

Janet

[majm]

Hi there,

Don't let the info on the death registration confuse you.  It is only as reliable as the informant's own knowledge, and as it was provided by her son, he would have given it to the funeral director at a time of dealing with his own grief.  The NSW BDM did not cross reference their own records.  Edward would have provided information to the best of his knowledge.  Perhaps his maternal grandfather had been long gone, or perhaps the question was posed as "What is the father's name?" and Edward heard it as "What is thy father's name?"

JM