Query with NSW Birth index

[Jan Prit]

Morning majm came across the marriage of John Tindall and Mary Ann McElroy on the 15/5/1839 RC Church Liverpool N.S.W. very black to read, no witnesses stated, only their names in running writing, found the Minister a Richard Marum found his web page, trying to find the name in the Witness column it could be the Minister? 

Janet

[majm]

Morning majm came across the marriage of John Tindall and Mary Ann McElroy on the 15/5/1839 RC Church Liverpool N.S.W. very black to read, no witnesses stated, only their names in running writing, found the Minister a Richard Marum found his web page, trying to find the name in the Witness column it could be the Minister? 

Janet

Hi there,

I have some questions   

  Where did you come across that entry?  What are the names in the entry immediately before it, and what are the names in the entry immediately after it?

  What spelling for the surnames for John and for Mary Ann in that marriage record?

  You say it is a very black image,  have you tried reversing the 'colour' ?  So that the 'black' becomes 'white' etc.   Sometimes this brings the handwriting to prominence and makes it easier to read. 

  Would you please transcribe the actual image you are looking at, word for word, including any numbers particularly at the beginning of the image (as in perhaps the entry number in that actual parish register)

  Where the bride and the groom 'sign', are there any numbers written there?  Did they 'sign' or did they make their mark 'x' ?

  Where is the actual register currently located?

  What are the names of the couple at the very top of the page, and what date for their marriage?

  Having a look at all the entries on the page, is 'your' couple the only couple who do not have witnesses named on the record?

Re : Rev Richard MARUM.
A quick look through Trove confirms that he was a young clergyman in the Liverpool District in that era.  His death 10 March 1842  : http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/31735282 12 March 1842 Aust Chronicle.

ADD
can you please include the webpage live link for Richard Marum. 

JM

[Jan Prit]

Morning majm, the certificate said. I do hereby declare that Iam member of, or hold Communion with the Roman Catholic Church. I Richard Marum Minister of The Catholic Church Liverpool do hereby certify that John Tindal of Liverpool and Mary McElroy of same place were joined together in Wedlock by me on the fifteenth day of May 1839 at Liverpool. I told you no Witnesses below and it looks like Richard Marum signed his name. This copy was sent to me by post not email its all black around the page a little bit of white showing in the middle, this was the 2nd marriage on the page. Can't read it the writing is shocking.
Janet

[majm]

There is an online tree that cites the marriage as 15 May 1839 and uses the following references.

Historical Index of BDM records, NSW Pioneers Index 1788-1888
Reg No: 7520/1839   

To me, reading that 'Reg No:' it is missing some vital details.   It is in the format of a civil registration.  Civil registration did not commence until 1856.  NSW BDM reference numbers, including those on the Pioneers Index for marriage prior to 1856 have far more digits in them and include "V" and also other identifying information.  So I am concerned about the integrity of that reference number. 

It is a bit like someone informing the tow truck company that a car with number plate "XY 10" was the car that was parked across the driveway stopping you from getting your own car out, and you want the tow truck company to move the offending car and send the owner the bill.   Simply put, 'XY 10' does not have sufficient information ... there's significant bits of data missing .....

I would expect the document you were sent in the mail to include all the details that are on the original parish register, including the clergyman's entry number.   Those details will help the NSW BDM and the Diocese itself to locate the original register and thus to be able to check that all the marriages in that register are indexed at NSW BDM.   I would expect the document you received in the mail to include the identifying reference numbers to find it in the NSW BDM CDs and/or Online Index, so that you can validate the authenticity of the document.     

Basically, I am asking a very direct question about that document sent to you in the mail .... was it from a private individual or was it a document that you ordered directly from an official source (the Church/Diocese or the NSW BDM/Official Transcription Agent? 

JM 

[Jan Prit]

Morning majm the copy was sent to me by a person who works in the Liverpool Library she has been helping me with this family until now due to health problems I don't pressure her anymore.

Janet

[majm]

So it may be a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy, from a family history folder in the library?


JM

[majm]

Even if a photocopy,  it may be worthwhile scanning it at full colour (yes, I know it would be b/w) , and reversing the 'colour' so that the black becomes white.   It can be an effective way to read the writing on the document.

JM

[Jan Prit]

Morning majm managed to scan 4 copies didn't make much difference, just a bit lighter.

Janet

[majm]

  

No sign of any numbers before the clergy's statement at all?

Any clues with the entry above or below?   Do they have witnesses named, or space for witnesses but not completed ....   looking for any 'pattern' to help archivists look for the original entry....   eg date for the entry above or below ....

JM