Query with NSW Birth index

[Jan Prit]

Thanks again JM for your help its most appreciated.

Janet

[Dundee]

MaryAnn McElroy married a John Tindall on the 15/5/1839 Liverpool N.S.W. Australia

I cannot see this marriage indexed, have you seen the church register?  Who were the witnesses?  Mary Ann was underage, is there any indictation of who gave her permission to marry?

Sarah was seving a two year sentence in gaol in Sydney from 18 Feb 1830 to 25 January 1832 so she was still alive then.

Debra 

[Jan Prit]

Hello Dundee, thanks for your help and to answer all your questions, I am still searching this entry which  is proving hard to find I only follow the past and future ancestor's records of the Tindall families.

Janet

[majm]

Hi,

May I please ask some very direct questions which follows on from your reply to Dundee's question .....

.... I am still searching this entry which  is proving hard to find I only follow the past and future ancestor's records of the Tindall families.

   Q1 As you do not have the marriage cert, how have you determined the date and place for the marriage as 15 May 1839, Liverpool NSW? 

   Q2 What was the denomination for the clergyman who married that couple on that day at that place? (may help to find where his register is held)

Have you tried to find the marriage indexed at familysearch's Australia Indexed Historical Records https://familysearch.org/search/collection/location/1927080?region=Australia

I see a number of marriages for 15 May 1839 at the NSW BDM online index, with groom as John, but none for the surname TINDALL or variations.   

Here is the NSW BDM Codes for those Early Church Records. 
 http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/early-church-codes.aspx
St Lukes C of E, Liverpool is coded CF
Primitive Methodist including Liverpool is coded KE
Roman Catholic, Liverpool is coded LI

Of course it is quite possible that the NSW BDM index has not included the 15 May 1839 marriage, and perhaps it has missed either the page or some pages from that particular parish register.  If so, may I suggest that you notify the NSW BDM of the current location of the register, so that they may make arrangements to update their holdings.  I am quite sure that they will welcome the update, I have done this on several occasions and while they take their time checking and re-checking and making further checks, the online index does eventually show the 'new' addition (I think it takes about six months at the moment)

JM

[Dundee]

Of course it is quite possible that the NSW BDM index has not included the 15 May 1839 marriage, and perhaps it has missed either the page or some pages from that particular parish register.  If so, may I suggest that you notify the NSW BDM of the current location of the register, so that they may make arrangements to update their holdings.  I am quite sure that they will welcome the update, I have done this on several occasions and while they take their time checking and re-checking and making further checks, the online index does eventually show the 'new' addition (I think it takes about six months at the moment)

JM

Family trees on Ancestry have the marriage at All Saints Roman Catholic, Liverpool.

The SAG have the registers on microfilm:

All Saints, Liverpool:

Baptisms: 3 Feb 1839 to 25 Sep 1876
Marriages: 14 Apr 1839 to 12 Sep 1855 AND 13 Apr 1858 to 7 Sep 1886
Burials: 30 Mar 1839 to 9 Jun 1924

http://catalogue.sag.org.au/fullRecord.jsp?recnoListAttr=recnoList&recno=43034

The church code for Liverpool R/C is LI and using that, the earliest marriage indexed at NSW BDM  is in 1841 (volume 91).

Logically the register should be included in Volume 90:

Vol. 90
Reel 5034
+ 1-end (645)
Marriages    1834-1840
Roman Catholic

Perhaps it is a more recent aquisiton by the SAG?

Debra 

[majm]

Yes, I think there’s problems though with some of the entries at Volume 90.   My old notebook has it as St Marys Cathedral, with some transmitted entries from outlying Parishes.

These are notes I made back in the pre internet days.  I do not have very much practical knowledge of Roman Catholic marriage certs, but from my old notes after checking with the current online index I find (I could be wrong, just my armchair checking this afternoon)

Volume 90 includes many entries for LD district.
 
The year 1839, marriages

  the entries seems to commence at line 373 and stop around line 502 with the remainder of the volume being for 1840 marriages. 
  But line 380 is missing from the online index, and lines 446-478 inclusive are missing, and line 484 is also missing.  There may be others, but those are ones I have noticed.   

   (I Used the option search by number only YES and entered the line number and the year and when the result comes up, checked out which volume and district is also included in the displayed results).

  I notice that line 502 of volume 90 for1839  is for the district of VU which was for Norfolk Island 

  Then when I tried to search for a marriage in 1839 for a groom with given name John, and in the district of L*  I found marriages for various John and Mary couples, BUT none seemed to be mismashed variations on TINDALL or McELROY. 

So if someone has actually found the marriage recorded in the parish register, it would be very helpful to share that info with NSW BDM, and to suggest they recheck other entries in that original register to confirm they have them all.  (and to sort out at lines 487 and 489 if the clergy actually did record Margaret Hogan as the groom and Luke Robinson as the bride.)   

JM

[Jan Prit]

Thanks majm, and Dundee I have only searched on various message boards and the Tindall Book which I have and they state the marriage date, I am connected through a Rebecca Tindall who married William Mason, thanks for your help I will keep on searching for the proper records.

Janet

[majm]

There is a submitted tree at Ancestry which has uploaded a scan of an official transcription of an Early Church Record Baptisms held at NSW BDM.
1842
Line 2242, Volume 26A
Born 4 July, 1842,
Rebecca, daughter of John, a Wheelwright and Mary Ann TINDALE, of Liverpool, baptised 31 July 1842, Church of England, parish of Liverpool in the county of Cumberland.  Noted as also indexed under Tindall.

Likely this is the indexed transcription for that baptism.  St Luke’s definitely C of E, not RC
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTCN-V6K   Rebecca TINDALL
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTX9-9MQ  Rebecca TINDALL

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTCT-Z7D  2 Nov 1840, Mary Jane baptised St Lukes
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTHN-RLN 6 May 1844 Emily baptised St Lukes
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XT6D-892 22 Feb 1846, Elizabeth Ann baptised St Lukes   
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTCR-VHR 5 Nov 1847 Charles baptised St Lukes
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTCG-8RL  27 Feb 1853, George Frederic, baptised St Lukes
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTDY-3VZ  27 July 1854, Emma baptised St Lukes

http://www.stlukesliverpool.org.au/history/ 

I am sure that both SAG and the Mitchell Library have reels covering St Lukes, C of E Liverpool from its earliest registers.

So basically, I am wondering as to IF the marriage of John and Rebecca was celebrated according to Roman Catholic rites …. I am doubting it.   I would expect details about John and Rebecca to be noted on St Lukes family sheets.  I do not know if those are extant for St Lukes, but the C of E did provide family sheets to its clergy.   Here’s the live link to the ones used by the C of E in the Hexham district (Newcastle) NSW.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606066769147/  (it is a live link, found at the NSW Resources sub-board here at RChat )


JM

[Jan Prit]

Afternoon majm thanks for your message and information, I have sent a email to SAG no reply as yet, and to the Mitchell Library about the McElroy's no help here, they like you to visit them and I live too far away to travel to the City. I am also waiting on the Liverpool Library no reply as yet.

Janet