Henry Jones baptism in Llanartheny about 1810

[osprey]

the use of patronymics in the IGI has nothing to do with the way the names were recorded by the cleric. The indexing of the IGI assumes that the surnames in Welsh parishes should be recorded as patronymics until the new style registers started in 1813. So, if you check the register itself, you get for example, 22 January 1810, Martha daughter of Thomas Madock, Trawsduganol ( no surname given for child).The old IGI in batch number C099301 for Llanarthney has this indexed as Martha Thomas and shows her father as Thomas Madock.

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X1RX-RMQ

FreeReg also has her indexed as Martha Thomas, father's first name Thomas & the notes say patronymic: father's name is Thomas Madock.

But the new FamilySearch collections
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/list
has her indexed as Martha Madock
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KCLN-K3W
There's no way for us to know if that family were still using patronymics at that time without checking for more records.

One of the problems with this is you need to know the father's first name to find the baptism unless you search by first name alone which can take a while if it's a common name. Or use the new FamilySearch if the parish you need is on it.

John would not necessarily have become Jones by that time, they might stay John or Johns. I've come families whose surname is David in 1841 & change to Davies by the 1861 census. I've also come across families in parts of Carmarthenshire still using patronymics in the 1830s. In one family one brother stopped around 1835 and the rest of his children were baptised with the same surname as him, but his brother carried on using the patronymic form.

 

[ianocon]

Thanks Osprey - very helpful
Am looking again at the family info
regards Ian

[despair]

I've been trying to identify William,obviously alive in 1828 when the eventual will of 1837 was written,and I suspect,the eldest,as first mentioned.While the William of Ffinant Ucha is interesting due to proximity,I can't yet make anything of him.The William Jones (1773-1833) of Penrheol is interesting because of the abode.While it doesn't appear to be the Llannon one,and I can't otherwise locate it,there are possible records at the same address for

Burial of David Thomas 1786-1823  Pen(y)rheol
Occupancy of Jane Jones 1841          Penyrhewl(there seems to be quite a few)
She is the same age and the only one of that age in the area as the Jane Jones(1791-1849) whose burial record gives Cwm Du.

I can't find any wills for any of these people,though there may be a bond for Jane Jones giving a David Davies as her brother.
Everything seems to fizzle out in the uncertainty of the patronymic.

Regards
Roger

[ianocon]

I made a note when I was searching for possible Thomas jones - There is a Penyrheol in Llanartheny in 1841 census (occupied by Benjamin and Elizabeth Harry both aged 80. It is next to Tycoch which has a Thomas Jones in it age 35  (so born about 1800 to 1805) with wife Margaret - that's in right age range for our Thomas.
Sorry - I've got visitors so research time is curtailed for a couple of days more!
Ian

[despair]

Found "Pen yr heol" and "Ty Coch" together in the top left corner of this map:-

http://maps.nls.uk/view/102179555

Danyrallt,Parkyd etc. are in the map geographically "above" in the series.

Regards
Roger

[ianocon]

Following up on Penyrheol which seems to keep reappearing with Jones references.
Tycoch next to Penyrheol has more than one family in it but Thomas Jones age 35 is there in 1841with wife Margaret and three children. He stays there thro 51,61,71 although wife Margaret must have died in 61-71 decade because he is there with just dtr Anne.
We don't have a good timeline for Thomas son of Parkyd. This would make him born 1807/8.
This could be him - trouble is there are a lot of Thomases of this age in Llanartheny!
What this has going for it is closeness to Parkyd Cwmdu etc and to Penyrheol.
What do you think? If it was correct it would give us another fairly certain birth date for the Parkyd family
Penyrheol has early references to jones - death William Jones 1833, Jane Jones (but Penyrhewl?) in 1841 and the early reference to David Thomas death in 1823 but in 51 Griffiths, 61 Griffiths, 71 Lewis so nothing obvious latterly.

[ianocon]

That Thomas born 1806/7/8 died at Tycoch 1872 age 66
Margaret predeceased him 8/7/1870 age 66.
Children Margaret died age 22 1867
Thomas son died 12/10/1865
But unfortunately can't find any evidence from these records to link them definitively with David of Parkyd
Ian

[despair]

Some very circumstantial evidence that might suggest William Jones(1771-1836),Ffynant Ucha is the brother of David of Parkyd.
In 1841 at Finant(sic),there is David(1806),Anne(1806) and John Jones(1816).There is a baptism for John Jones at Ffynant Ucha to William and Mary.In 1841 this John Jones is given as a tailor.
In 1851 Avid and sister Anne(now given 1803) are still at Finant,but there is a John Jones,tailor,of the right age,married at Caer Cwm Bach.
David Jones,lson of David Jones of Parkyd is at Caer Cwm in 1851(and if I remember rightly the abode is specified in his will)In the 1851 census at Caer Cwm there is also a Thomas Jones,given born 1777 as a lodger rather than a relation.I can't  trace him at the moment.
To add speculation on speculation there is a marriage of William John to Mary David in 1802.

Regards
Roger

[ianocon]

I've noted your William info. It would be good to get some definitive links and hopefully they will emerge.
There are not enough Henry Jones births in llanartheny for the number of Henrys around so I have been trying at least to match those we know about with out two Henrys.
I decided to follow Henry of Saxe Coburg son of Danyrallt
In 1841 you placed him in Llandarrog age 35 (no wife) because the Prince Of SC pub was there. I see him marked Publican but no actual recognition of the Pub. However, supposing that is right he is there again in 1851 born Llanartheny and described as Innkeeper now married to Elizabeth 41 (born LLegwad) with son Martyn 11.
He then seems to disappear from Llandarrog and the only references that make sense have him as a farmer in Pennline Glamorgan with wife Elizabeth 51 in 1861. I would be sceptical but this Elizabeth was born in LLegwad which must be more than a coincidence.  She dies but he carries on and in 1881 has an unmarried niece Ann Davies 52 with him.
Assuming she might give a clue to Elizabeths name at marriage I looked for Henry Jones/ Elizabeth Davies marriages in the 1841 to 51 period and found one BUT sadly his father's name was John Jones not David Jones so this is probably a red herring unless there is a patronymic I don't understand. Annoyingly this leaves me with another Henry Jones born llanartheny about 1806 to 1810 with no baptism reference that I can find.
I also haven't pinned down the birth of Henry of Saxe Coburg!
It begins to feel as if there must be other baptisms in that area which lead to a Llanartheny place description for census returns but are not in the Llanartheny parish records. Any thoughts about this?
regards Ian