Author Topic: Gipsy Dan Boswell  (Read 22630 times)

Offline panished

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Gipsy Dan Boswell
« on: Saturday 12 September 15 12:16 BST (UK) »
 

I went by selston today, well i was working and the rain heavy going, i called in to pay my respects to the Gipsy Dan Boswell, he's gone manys the long year, but the strangest thing happened, i met this man tending a grave, he says its the grave of the old vicar, he died in 1978,well this man i was talking to says how he was the church warden and served with the priest of this church for several years back then, he says  he would tell me the story of Dan Boswells gravestone, he told how the vicar herbot victor Simmons was such a fine man and respected by all, this man now telling me was  putting flowers on his old vicars graveside, its just on the left  side as you walk up towards Dan Boswells grave, its a white stone with black letters i think now, yes i think it was 78 he died, well this old church warden from those times telled how the priest , vicar was sad about Dan's grave stone, the years would be the early seventy's i think he said, maybe the middle seventies, well it was a very important grave in there church, so they had a collection from the village church people, they raised the money for the new stone by getting paper and selling it, this is and old thing from years back for i even done those things with my own brothers, you would take it to a paper factory and weigh it in , old news paper and such, well this old church warden his name Mr harper if i recall said the old grave stone the buried under the grass right next to the new grave stone, he showed me the spot, and he said the old grave stone of Dan Boswell was not facing the way it is now but if you stand in front of it , it was on the left hand side facing the church walls, most of the writing was hard to read and the had to search church records for the date, he still as old magazines of the time and history of the time they put the new stone up, he no longer goes to that church but if any of Dan Boswells relatives wants more information i think its best to search him out now, he said he thought the stone was made by copes in ridding, i think that's just down the hill another sort of small village,  the people who are alive and know true history often die of, and the story then becomes mixed up, he was a real nice man and telled how the good vicar Mr Simmons did his very best for the Gipsy Dan Boswell,  its just i met by the strangest of chance this very day with the old church warden, i,m sure his names Mr Harper.

I sent this letter to the Romany connections web site a few years back, but just encase no one seen it, I'll put it here as well, them old stones might have reference numbers on with info, and that warden or church helper as photos of himself digging the grave, the old stone, right under your feet he telled me, hope some one find him one day, maybe he's dead himself now, I think that was his name but old people who do go to the church would remember the old vicars helper, I don't know what was really wrote on the grave, but all you hear is what old writers wrote and a cow knocked it over, maybe all the old stone is under your feet, best respects for the Gipsy Dan Boswell , you'll rest in pease
                                                                                             

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Offline richarde1979

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Re: Gipsy Dan
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 13 September 15 11:02 BST (UK) »
Interesting post Panished.

The Rev Hubert Victor Simmons was at St Mary's, Selston, 1962 - 1976, so the new stone must have been placed then. I think it had also earlier been replaced around 1911. The original stone, kicked in half by a cow, is said to have been devoid of any inscription, but I can't see how that can be as 'Blacks Guide to Nottinghamshire', published in 1876 contains a description of it with inscription, the same one that stands today "I've lodged in many a town, I've travelled many a year, But death at length hath brought me down to my last lodgings here..."

The current stone says 'Dan Boswell Gipsy King 1737 -1827'. The parish register of the actual burial conflicts with this, according to the transcriptions made by Julie Gerring at the Nottingham Family History Society he was buried on 18th March 1827 recorded as 'Daniel Bosswell, aged seventy six', abode: ' A Tent on Hall Green, Selston Common'.

In1896 the 'Journal of the Derbyshire Archaelogical Society' makes reference to him as ' Daniel Boswell, a king or chief of the Gipsy family of that name, who died on the 21st March, 1821, aged 73, in his tent on Hall Green, Selston Common'. Why this earlier source has his age, the date of burial and the year of burial different by six years I don't know, but the same information was evidently later used as a source in the 'Journal of the Gypsy Lore Society' in 1948, where identical information is given.
Bellenger, Sebire, Soubien, Mallandain, Molle, Baudoin - Normandy/London
Deverdun, Bachelier, Hannoteau, Martin, Ledoux, Dumoutier, Lespine, Montenont, Picard, Desmarets - Paris & Picardy/Amsterdam/London
Mourgue, Chambon, Chabot - Languedoc/London

Holohan, Donnelly, McGowan/McGoan - Leitrim, Ireland/Dundee, Scotland/London.

Gordon, Troup, Grant, Watt, McInnes - Aberdeenshire, Scotland/London

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Offline panished

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Re: Gipsy Dan
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 13 September 15 13:30 BST (UK) »
 nice one Rich

 how about this one then, the Gipsy parson Rev George Hall wrote in his book that he was at selston in 1906, well he said the epitaph was still faintly visible and referred to Dan Boswell as the chief of his Family, but Liston to this he says his farther in law was formally a curate of selston and telled George how he remembered Gipsys pouring libations of ale on the grave,

this was 1906 I think, the time of the book but in 1907  have just read this from the  calendar customs a guide to British calendar customs and local traditions Selston in Nottinghamshire is the setting for one of the handful of ceremonies which take place atop a church tower. The tower here was built in the fifteenth century and it houses eight bells. Each July on the Sunday nearest 6th, a special Tower Service is conducted by the Vicar who stands on the tower and preaches to the congregation gathered on the ground at its foot below; one of the theories for the origin of the custom is that the vicar Charles Harrison thought it would encourage visiting traveller families to participate in the service, so he began the custom in 1907. Gypsy King Dan Boswell is buried here in the churchyard and Selston Green was a regular encampment for travellers. Expect the vicarís sermon, a guest preacher and a selection of well-known hymns.

so looks like the reverent Halls relative started all this custom all be course of Gipsy Dan Boswell,  and he said there was lots of people coming then pouring ale not just putting babies on the grave,

and I read this from the Nottinghamshire history resoures for local histories and genealogists
it says the Kings England Nottinghamshire
The Midland Stronhold
Edited by Arthur Mee 1938   
The Gipsy King

Dan Boswell's gravestone.
Dan Boswell's restored gravestone.

SELSTON. The finest views of this colliery village are from the neatly tended churchyard, with lovely trees, where we look out to the Derbyshire hills and Crich Tower high in the west. It is a fitting resting-place for one who loved the open country, and under the shade of a lofty lime near the 15th century tower lies Dan Boswell, King of the Gipsies. On the broken stone now flat on his grave a few words are still seen, and though the epitaph is gone it was odd enough to be remembered:

I've lodged in many a town,
I've travelled many a year,
But death at length has brought me down
To my last lodging here.

do you see now it says the stones flat on the ground, 
and the man who put the new stone up in the early seventy's said they searched for the right date, so maybe it never in the beginning said king,
but old Gipsy Dan now sure got people talking

Offline richarde1979

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Re: Gipsy Dan
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 13 September 15 14:31 BST (UK) »
I have the Rev.Hall's book somewhere will have to dig it out and dust it off for a read.


The Derbyshire Times, Sunday April 25th 1874 is the earliest source I can find which gives a description of the original stone:

"In Memory of Daniel Boswell, who died March 1827, Aged 83.
I have lodged in many a place 'tis true.
And traveled many a year,
Till God at length has brought me down
To my last lodgings here"

The age on that disagrees with all the other sources, 73, 76, 90! Your right that seems to show the original stone did not refer to him as a 'King' or a chief', nor did the parish register of the actual burial.
Bellenger, Sebire, Soubien, Mallandain, Molle, Baudoin - Normandy/London
Deverdun, Bachelier, Hannoteau, Martin, Ledoux, Dumoutier, Lespine, Montenont, Picard, Desmarets - Paris & Picardy/Amsterdam/London
Mourgue, Chambon, Chabot - Languedoc/London

Holohan, Donnelly, McGowan/McGoan - Leitrim, Ireland/Dundee, Scotland/London.

Gordon, Troup, Grant, Watt, McInnes - Aberdeenshire, Scotland/London

Offline panished

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Re: Gipsy Dan
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 13 September 15 18:36 BST (UK) »
fair play Rich
you done well there ,

I don't suppose a person can right believe anything, you know, just because its stated,
I could be wrong but I remember Linda Boswell saying on the internet a few back that she thought Boswells of Dan's would not talk like that, I'm sure she said something along those lines ,she's one of the Derby Boswells ,as for the dates ,well there must be something behind all those wrongs, maybe there's some one who propagates things like Kings , there's one thing making money from them times having Gipsy balls , but why would you go round calling your dead kings, its like a low class thing ,each to there own like, that's just my view, not sure if any of the things I wrote from what I saw on line is true but everything at  selston church yard I spoke of is as it is,  pore old Dans gravestones been up and down more times than a roller coaster, and been moved to ,i wonder is it just people in someway over different times making mileage on the back of a Gipsy like Dan Boswell, but maybe not, it would be good if his relatives the ones who look can find the truth one day , good for the Gipsy Dan Boswell, I hope anyone who as read these words of mine and yours will in the future remember and find new true things, it would be a good thing to do, it was good speaking to you Rich, I'll not be back now, but you look after yourself, fair play to old Dan Boswell, I would say he came from good people , none finer than himself I say, if you ever go by selston , see how he brings you in, you,ll feel it,good luck Rich

michael

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Re: Gipsy Dan
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 27 September 15 14:16 BST (UK) »
 


  I was just wondering about why the grave was broke, did a cow do it, did the Gipsy smash it, then I read  there was a massive restorations of the church around the time of the parsons visit, I think so endways, anyway the grave could be broke for all those reasons but just read a bit of this,
this  might explain the dates getting mixed up,

Southwell and Nottingham church history project


The low number attending the church and the absence of the vicar may go some way towards explaining why, during the 18th and 19th centuries, the church seems to have been neglected and falling into disrepair. The next three vicars were largely absent, but there was a long-serving curate in the parish. John Pepperís name first appears in the parish registers in 1803. He continued to complete the registers and officiate at nearly all of the baptisms, marriages and burials which took place at St Helenís until the beginning of 1836. The register chest installed in the church in 1815 bears the name of this curate, not the vicarís name.

 
then the building work started, all over Dans gravestone,


At the end of the 1890s, the Rev C. Harrison turned his attention to the condition of St Helenís, and saw the need for extensive repair, restoration and enlargement

On 3 July 1904, St Helenís was closed, becoming a building site for almost a year.

The Rev C. Harrison lived long enough to see the beginning of the First World War, but he died in May 1916. Photographs show his grave covered with an enormous display of floral tributes, evidence of the high regard in which he was held

During the 1960s and 1970s only minor alterations were made inside St Helenís. The exterior appearance was greatly altered by the removal of many gravestones from the oldest part of the churchyard in 1963-1964. Some of the stones were used to create paths,

25 June 1810
 
Joseph Dixie Churchill, vicar
 
Died 1836. Rector of Blicking-with-Empingham 1802-1810 and 1811-1836, Vicar of Cadesby 1810-1836, Vicar of Henstead 1811-1836.
 

25 Nov 1836
 
Fleetwood Churchill, vicar
 
Son of J Churchill, born at Empingham. Vicar of Roughton 1817-1855. Died Feb 1855
 

19 July 1855
 
George Frederick Williamson, vicar
 
Also chaplain to Duchess of Gordon 1847-1863, Vicar of Longnor 1856-1864 and other posts
 

11 Sept 1856
 
Robert John William Wright, vicar
 
On cession of G Williamson. Died 2 Aug 1887, buried in the churchyard.
 

26 Nov 1887
 
Charles Harrison, vicar
 
Died 28 April 1916, buried in churchyard
 

21 July 1916
 
Richard Dudley Weller, vicar
 
He went to Ruddington 1924
 

5 Nov 1924
 
Philip Hannington Hart, vicar
 
Served in RGA 1917-1920. Resigned 12 Aug 1929
 

23 Nov 1929
 
Palmer Allison Sharp, vicar
 
 
 

22 Apr 1937
 
Henry Wright Schofield, vicar
 
On cession of Sharp
 

22 Sept 1945
 
Edward Frederick Holwell Dunnicliffe, MA, vicar
 
On cession of Schofield
 

1 Dec 1949
 
Hugh Bickersteth Bidell, vicar
 
On cession of Dunnicliffe. Biddell resignation 1 Oct 1956
 

1956
 
Gerald Nettleton Pearce, BA, vicar
 
Sequestration (cession) 14 Sept 1961
 

1962
 
Hubert Victor Simmons
 
On cession of Pearce. Died 3 March 1978, buried in churchyard
 

then I read this

0ld churches of the mansfield deanery by h walkerdine and a s buxton 1907

 

The most interesting object in the church, undoubtedly, is the ancient Norman font, which the vicar has lately had restored to its proper place. About 150 years ago it was removed from the church, and a family of the name of Gill carried it to Blackwell. It was subsequently brought back to Selston, and for many years did duty as a trough under the pump at the village inn, the "Bull and Butcher." Some few years ago it was carried to a private house and was used as a flower stand. A rose tree planted in it, from all accounts, flourished. At the recent restoration of the church the vicar secured possession of it, and it now occupies a more fitting place than beneath the pump at the village inn. Many immersions, certainly not of a religious nature, have taken place within this interesting relic. The font is the only remaining trace of the Norman period. It is bucket shaped, with a band of cable molding round it. The top has been used apparently for generations by Selstonians as a whetstone, on which to put an edge on pocket, and, perhaps, other knives

 
then I read this


Derbyshire times 02 2007
Despite the precarious nature of the event, no accident has ever been recordedÖexcept for one incumbent who never made it almost. When thirty years ago, the Rev Vic Simmons, was about to read his final tower sermon set his foot alight with weed killer (accidentally). He was determined to do it stating:

ďIt was the highlight of the church year. I didnít want to miss it.Ē

So a chair was carried up and no doubt he made a slow and rather tender climb to the top.

Offline panished

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Re: Gipsy Dan
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 27 September 15 14:24 BST (UK) »
that took some time ,I had to delete thousands of words, then I just realised I could of done two posts,
never mind,

I hope this helps others in the future, there could be some truth in there,

michael

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Re: Gipsy Dan
« Reply #7 on: Sunday 27 September 15 14:58 BST (UK) »
what I mean about the history of the font is, well they as in vicars , curates, or whatever name they have ,they tried to make there old church good, stone mad for showing it good,  they did what they had to do, now who is the main protagonist, or should I say who is the true king, or even kings of there church, most people in most times do things for the right reason, and there's always  an answer for everything, maybe its just not been found yet,

michael

Offline richarde1979

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Re: Gipsy Dan
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 27 September 15 15:33 BST (UK) »
This letter was written to the Derbyshire Times on 7th June 1873:

Dan Boswell - 'When a lad at Pinxton some twenty years ago, I recollect having pointed out to me on Selston Common, not far distant from the Hall, the place where the Gipsy King Dan Boswell died. He was buried at the back of Selston Church, and a headstone placed to his memory. I regret to say owing to the shameful practice of allowing cows to graze in the churchyard, one of the animals broke in two the stone. When I saw it one half was left in the ground and the other part not far distant. I presume it is not possible to obtain a copy of the inscription of the stone, Any particulars relating to Boswell will greatly Oblige' W.A.  Editor - Cows still graze, to our knowledge, in two churchyards of this county. We are thinking of putting the owners of these freeholds [the clergymen] into the pillory of print.

That suggests it was smashed by a cow, and at least by the 1850's. A bit of a detective work shows the only lad with those initials in the village was a William Alcock born 1830, three years after Dan's burial. He later became a gas works manager, so probably was a literate man, and I would guess he is the best candidate for the man who wrote this letter. If so the grave must have been broken within the first twenty years or so of it being placed on Dan Boswell's grave in 1827. It lay broken in half for at least sixty or seventy years until the first replacement stone was put up around 1912. The inscription on the top half probably faded for the details to be more or less unrecognizable if it was lain all that time on the ground with mud being kicked onto it in those years. 
Bellenger, Sebire, Soubien, Mallandain, Molle, Baudoin - Normandy/London
Deverdun, Bachelier, Hannoteau, Martin, Ledoux, Dumoutier, Lespine, Montenont, Picard, Desmarets - Paris & Picardy/Amsterdam/London
Mourgue, Chambon, Chabot - Languedoc/London

Holohan, Donnelly, McGowan/McGoan - Leitrim, Ireland/Dundee, Scotland/London.

Gordon, Troup, Grant, Watt, McInnes - Aberdeenshire, Scotland/London