Author Topic: Gipsy Dan Boswell  (Read 22602 times)

Offline panished

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Re: Gipsy Dan
« Reply #9 on: Sunday 27 September 15 16:52 BST (UK) »
well done Rich people will learn great things from you,

but what about the book that says the stone was broke in 1938 by Arthur  Mee, that must mean it was broke not by a cow if it was changed in 1912, who broke it that time, the building work may still have been ongoing, or some person could of smashed it if they seen the writing was done wrong, I was told by that man that he dug the old bit of bottom stone out, that's why he new it was being changed,

 I thought the new spot is good for people looking round the churchyard, i,m sure the old layout of surrounding graves would be right for what he said, its hard to remember  thoe, easy to mix things up,

that sounds to me a good piece of evidence you found, but did anyone really see a cow knock a grave over, or just people assuming that would be about right,
some of the writing I deleted from my earlier post was about the times of the enclosure act that hit selston common right where Dan passed away, there was much trouble then, not sure if the times match I deleted everything I found ,I know people talk and say things like kings, chief, or whatever, but would people of Dans put such words on a grave stone, there would be the talk of old top men even by the locals, that's just how people talk, mind you , you already wrote about so far it never said king, in the earliest time you found yet

 so that letter you found sounds right to me, but unless I seen the cow break the stone I wouldn't put to much heed in concrete truth, just say that's part of the history ,meaning someone just saying they think that happened, well your one good detective, i,m not really educated to your standard in writing ,  I need the spell check big time, see the truth is always the best route, I hope you find more and people remember you, I will anyway,

your Sherlock , and I,m his pal, the daft one,

all the best Rich, I was only having a go, trying to do the right decent thing,

michael

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Offline richarde1979

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Re: Gipsy Dan
« Reply #10 on: Sunday 27 September 15 17:17 BST (UK) »
Yours are great posts on this Michael, they have got my mind ticking on Dan's grave stone. I'm sure your right nobody actually saw the cow kick it over. It would have to be a strong old kick to break through stone, but for good or bad the cow has taken the blame. Cow's grazing in churchyards and damaging stones was a big problem though. It was looked down upon, but vicars had the right to graze their livestocks in their churchyards, and sometimes cows and sheep just strayed in because they didn't have either the funds or the inclination to fix the church gates to keep the local livestock out!.The vicar of Clowne wrote into the Derbyshire Times a week after the Dan Boswell letter in 1873 to say he had fixed his gate and he'd no longer let the local livestock trample all over his grave yard, so obviously he was scared he was one of those they had threatened to name and shame.

I havn't heard of the 1938 source with Arthur Mee. Rev. Harrisson was planning to resurrect the stone in 1912, but whether he ever did? Maybe he didn't and the original stone was still standing...or half of it, broke in the 30's?
Bellenger, Sebire, Soubien, Mallandain, Molle, Baudoin - Normandy/London
Deverdun, Bachelier, Hannoteau, Martin, Ledoux, Dumoutier, Lespine, Montenont, Picard, Desmarets - Paris & Picardy/Amsterdam/London
Mourgue, Chambon, Chabot - Languedoc/London

Holohan, Donnelly, McGowan/McGoan - Leitrim, Ireland/Dundee, Scotland/London.

Gordon, Troup, Grant, Watt, McInnes - Aberdeenshire, Scotland/London

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Offline panished

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Re: Gipsy Dan
« Reply #11 on: Sunday 27 September 15 17:33 BST (UK) »
this is some of the deleated post I wrote of from the same southwell and Nottingham churches web page,


The churchyard immediately surrounding the church building was formally closed in 1857. Burials continued to take place, so it must be assumed that a new area was in use, and a further one acre was added and consecrated in 1893. The Post Office Directory of 1876 gives a very brief description of the St Helenís, and states that the patronage has been purchased by the Wright family, who continue as patrons to the present day. It adds that the vicarage has a yearly value of £150. Although the value was increasing, it still appears to have been insufficient for the needs of the incumbent, and in 1884 the Ecclesiastical Commissioners granted £170 per annum in augmentation of the living.

In was in 1877, while Wright was still the Vicar, that the Selston Enclosure Act was passed. The was the last Enclosure Act in Nottinghamshire, and it led to many acres of the former common land being fenced, a move not entirely approved of by Selstonís residents. In Wright's Directory of Nottingham of 1894-95 it is reported, 'In 1878 a great agitation was caused in the parish as to the rights of the people on the vast area of forest and pasture land known as Selston Hall Green.

so the enclosure act came after the time of the letter  ,but the churchyard was closed in 57, formally,that must mean informally it may have been closed much earlier,

yes the cow got the blame, mind you ,men are always saying bad things about old cows , merr

Offline panished

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Re: Gipsy Dan
« Reply #12 on: Sunday 27 September 15 17:46 BST (UK) »


and that was a very interesting post about what you just wrote,
 I hope you write a sort of book one day,     

michael

Offline panished

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Re: Gipsy Dan
« Reply #13 on: Monday 28 September 15 20:02 BST (UK) »
hello Rich

how can the first letter contradict the second letter,
first the man who tells of halls green, then the story of the cow breaking not kicking the headstone in two, and not seeing  the inscription, why is this, is this the earliest source of a cow, I even read some writing which says bull, do you think its just a fairy tale;

why in 1873 does he not read the inscription when in your other letter of 1874 it tells of the true inscription, well the oldest up to now, if the first letter as only a thread of truth its must be the second letter of 1874 is quoting an even older source for that inscription , through everything I have read I don't believe no cow pushed or kicked a gravestone in two, it would of just lent backwards or forwards , if there's no eye witness its just someone covering up,
a local fed up with all those Gipsys coming in strength to visit the grave in the years after Dan's death could of put the hammer through it, that's how you break a stone,

the letters contradict each other unless the inscription one is quoting an even older sours

if the relatives of Dan Boswell found the grave stone smashed they would be asking questions, being that the vicar was seldom there , the pore curate who had all the work to do maybe had to make the tale up, in my earlier post it tells how the vicar was absent most of the time in those times as quoted from this source

Southwell and Nottingham church history project


The low number attending the church and the absence of the vicar may go some way towards explaining why, during the 18th and 19th centuries, the church seems to have been neglected and falling into disrepair. The next three vicars were largely absent, but there was a long-serving curate in the parish. John Pepperís name first appears in the parish registers in 1803. He continued to complete the registers and officiate at nearly all of the baptisms, marriages and burials which took place at St Helenís until the beginning of 1836. The register chest installed in the church in 1815 bears the name of this curate, not the vicarís name.


these are the two letters you found,


This letter was written to the Derbyshire Times on 7th June 1873:

Dan Boswell - 'When a lad at Pinxton some twenty years ago, I recollect having pointed out to me on Selston Common, not far distant from the Hall, the place where the Gipsy King Dan Boswell died. He was buried at the back of Selston Church, and a headstone placed to his memory. I regret to say owing to the shameful practice of allowing cows to graze in the churchyard, one of the animals broke in two the stone. When I saw it one half was left in the ground and the other part not far distant. I presume it is not possible to obtain a copy of the inscription of the stone, Any particulars relating to Boswell will greatly Oblige' W.A.  Editor - Cows still graze, to our knowledge, in two churchyards of this county. We are thinking of putting the owners of these freeholds [the clergymen] into the pillory of print


The Derbyshire Times, Sunday April 25th 1874 is the earliest source I can find which gives a description of the original stone:

"In Memory of Daniel Boswell, who died March 1827, Aged 83.
I have lodged in many a place 'tis true.
And traveled many a year,
Till God at length has brought me down
To my last lodgings here"

Offline panished

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Re: Gipsy Dan
« Reply #14 on: Monday 28 September 15 21:17 BST (UK) »
and in the first letter of 1873, it is again just the locals saying king, in the 1874 second letter of the writing on the grave it does not say king, the second letter even thoe one year older must outdate in value the first , that's if you can believe anything that's wrote,

I think I will when I get time put everything thing in an order of time, so people in the future can see through time age the things we found and the things I know from meeting that man who put the new stone up, that's why I started this, for others not me, then other people can insert things in the timescale as they find them if they wish, I hope you keep putting things on ,Linda spoke decent to me years back , not many really did, I only ever wrote for her, she's a well proud person, she's from those I think the Samuel fox talk of the Derbyshire Boswells, there of the original   original's, the had the dna done and that's the old lot, but I think there all related, you can be proud of that to
and she say Michael don't ever be afraid to put things on the internet of my people,

so that was good enough for me ,just encase anyone was thinking bad, and if you did,the bad luck is looking at you

michael
michael

Offline richarde1979

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Re: Gipsy Dan
« Reply #15 on: Tuesday 29 September 15 15:46 BST (UK) »
I did wonder myself Michael, if the stone was broke when Dan's relatives were still alive, by man or beast, and I mean his close people, sons , daughters, grandsons were still all around, why didn't they kick up a fuss or replace it? Does seem strange. Definitely the locals sometimes took the hump at Romany families visiting graves. There's the famous story of Joshua Scamps grave in Wiltshire. The church tried to stop them visiting, took flowers off the grave, locked the church, fenced it off, and his daughter supposedly put a curse on them, so the door has never been locked up since, and the key was thrown in the local river. But even they didn't go as far as to break the stone itself.

The man who wrote the 1873 letter was just assuming the headstone could no longer be read, but the 1874 letter seems to show broken or not the writing was still clear enough , maybe the age was faded though? By the time the new stone was put up in the 20th century, I reckon the dates on the top half that had been sat in the mud all those years was faded to nothing, and that's why they got them wrong on the new stone. I don't believe the stone the family originally placed had the words 'Gypsy King' on them, I reckon that is the locals or the church men adding their own spin on him and local legend. The only other stone I know with similar wording is Lucretia Smith's in Derbyshire from 1844, where she is down as 'Queen of the Gypsies'..but again is that stone original or not, I don't know? The same with Robert Boswell 'A Gipsey' buried at Loders, Dorset on 31st March 1806. A plaque was erected on his grave site inscribed 'King of the Gypsies' but by who, his family or locals no-one seems to know, it had faded to nothing by the 1870's.

The original stone at Selston seems to have said 'Daniel Bosswell" rather than "Dan Boswell"..which matches the parish register, and all his known children's baptisms.

There are at least two older Boswell stones that exist, Inverto Boswells in Calne, Wiltshire and Rose Boswells at South Luffenham, Leicestershire. They are both described as a 'Prince' and Princess' in the local legend in these parishes but the actual inscriptions the families had made up don't make any claims like that as you'd expect.

In memory of Rose Boswell, Daughter of Edward and Sarah Boswell,Who died February 19th, 1794, Aged 17 years.What grief can vent this loss, or praises tell,how much,how good,
how beautiful she fell.


'Under this Tomb lieth the body of Inverto Boswell, Son of Henry and Elizabeth Boswell, who departed this life the 8th day of February 1774, aged 36. The Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away: blessed be the Name of the Lord.í

Bellenger, Sebire, Soubien, Mallandain, Molle, Baudoin - Normandy/London
Deverdun, Bachelier, Hannoteau, Martin, Ledoux, Dumoutier, Lespine, Montenont, Picard, Desmarets - Paris & Picardy/Amsterdam/London
Mourgue, Chambon, Chabot - Languedoc/London

Holohan, Donnelly, McGowan/McGoan - Leitrim, Ireland/Dundee, Scotland/London.

Gordon, Troup, Grant, Watt, McInnes - Aberdeenshire, Scotland/London

Offline panished

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Re: Gipsy Dan
« Reply #16 on: Tuesday 29 September 15 19:53 BST (UK) »
hello Rich

more great writing from you, very sad writing to,
I will talk another time,  I think its best to show some respect for all those people, it was very sad writing,
but I do hope to talk again
respect for all Gipsy people who have moved on,
and rest in peace all people of the world

michael

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Re: Gipsy Dan
« Reply #17 on: Wednesday 30 September 15 20:04 BST (UK) »
hello Rich
 

if this is true

Nottinghamshire history resoures for local histories and genealogists
it says the Kings England Nottinghamshire
The Midland Stronghold
Edited by Arthur Mee 1938    Hodder & Stoughton, 1938
The Gipsy King

Dan Boswell's gravestone.
 

SELSTON. The finest views of this colliery village are from the neatly tended churchyard, with lovely trees, where we look out to the Derbyshire hills and Crich Tower high in the west. It is a fitting resting-place for one who loved the open country, and under the shade of a lofty lime near the 15th century tower lies Dan Boswell, King of the Gipsies. On the broken stone now flat on his grave a few words are still seen, and though the epitaph is gone it was odd enough to be remembered:

I've lodged in many a town,
I've travelled many a year,
But death at length has brought me down
To my last lodging here


it means Rich the stone is still next to the grave in 1938,

but if this is true

Southwell and Nottingham church history project

During the 1960s and 1970s only minor alterations were made inside St Helenís. The exterior appearance was greatly altered by the removal of many gravestones from the oldest part of the churchyard in 1963-1964. Some of the stones were used to create paths,

it means the top half of the original stone is in one of the paths round the church,
and the man who put up the new stone in 72,  I think he said, well he  said that the vicar searched records for the right date from the church,

so if the stone was never replaced in 1912, it was still there together in 38 but in the sixty's they cleaned the place up and put the top half in a path, in 1972 they changed the stone the inscription and alignment of the grave, but Liston there's more , do you think that someone still alive now  would have had any input into the new inscription, other that the vicar I mean, now that would be a turn up if the inscription from the 1874 letter never gets outdated,

michael