Author Topic: Heraldry  (Read 1157 times)

Offline Annad

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Heraldry
« on: Saturday 10 October 15 11:03 BST (UK) »
Hello,

Not sure this is the right place to post this message as it is not specific just to Dorset. Anyway, I would really appreciate some help with the following description - they are of two people's arms and I would like to know if they are possibly from the same family. 

 BROWNE - DORSETSHIRE sa, three lions passant betw, two bendlets ar. in the sinister chief point a trefoil of the last --- crest, a griffins head, erased sa. or beaked or   -  borne by John Herbert Browne of Weymouth 1824

Arms of William Browne (Devon/Surrey)- viz fable, three lions betw two bendlets arg. a crescent with a mullet, for difference, crest - a griffins head erased or.

Thanks for any help

Anna

 
Chesterfield, Staveley, Brampton, Whittington, Brimington, Newbold - Derbyshire, Dronfield, Matlock
Whittlesey, Thorney - Cambridgeshire
Bridport, Weymouth, Wyke Regis - Dorset
London
Markfield -Leicestershire
Hethe, Bicester, Bucknell - Oxfordshire
Steeple Claydon, Fenny Stratford - Bucks
Bishop's Castle, - Shropshire
Newcastle West, Co Limerick, Ireland
Navan, Co Meath, Ireland
Curragh, Co Kildare, Ireland
Colwich, Great Haywood, Staffordshire

Offline KGarrad

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Re: Heraldry
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 10 October 15 11:27 BST (UK) »
The blazons are identical: sable (black), 3 lions passant (as per England football!), between 2 bendlets (narrow diagonal stripes, top left to bottom right) argent (silver, or white).

This means that the lions are white also, and black is the background colour.

Traditionally, in English Heraldry, only the father uses the main coat-of-arms.
The sons use the same but with a mark denoting their hierarchy - called a difference.

1st son normally uses a a label of 3 points (a horizontal white stripe with 3 tags hanging down).
2nd son uses a crescent
3rd son uses a mullet (a 5 pointed star)
4th son a martlet (a bird)
etc.

The crests (the bit that sits on top of the shield) are also similar:
A griffins head, erased (as if torn from the body), or (gold)


So I would say that they are from the same family, but the second is a son, or possibly grandson of the first?
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

Offline Annad

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Re: Heraldry
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 10 October 15 12:06 BST (UK) »
Thanks for your speedy and helpful reply.  What you say would fit with what little I know about the family. William Browne was definitely a third son but he was 15c my John Herbert Browne was born in the 18c - the arms seemed to just turn up out of the blue. My Brownes have definite connections to Langtree and Tavistock, Devon where the Brownes there apparently descend from the Sussex Brownes. Anyway it looks like it is worth persuing this a bit further.

Thanks again for your help, much appreciated.

Anna
Chesterfield, Staveley, Brampton, Whittington, Brimington, Newbold - Derbyshire, Dronfield, Matlock
Whittlesey, Thorney - Cambridgeshire
Bridport, Weymouth, Wyke Regis - Dorset
London
Markfield -Leicestershire
Hethe, Bicester, Bucknell - Oxfordshire
Steeple Claydon, Fenny Stratford - Bucks
Bishop's Castle, - Shropshire
Newcastle West, Co Limerick, Ireland
Navan, Co Meath, Ireland
Curragh, Co Kildare, Ireland
Colwich, Great Haywood, Staffordshire

Offline KGarrad

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Re: Heraldry
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 10 October 15 14:03 BST (UK) »
The arms would have been originally granted to a named man.

His sons would be allowed to use the arms, by using a difference (or mark of cadence) as I stated.
Eventually the eldest surviving son would "inherit" the use of the arms - his sons would use a difference; his brothers would normally change the coat-of-arms in some way. Maybe by changing the crest on top of the shield.

The fact that the later arms shows 2 marks of cadence (Crescent and mullet) might indicate that he was the 3rd son of a 2nd son?!
I don't know the answer - just surmising! ;D
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)


Offline Annad

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Re: Heraldry
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 10 October 15 16:10 BST (UK) »
Thanks for explaining it all so clearly. I will have to get them checked out to see if there's
Anything in it.

Anna
Chesterfield, Staveley, Brampton, Whittington, Brimington, Newbold - Derbyshire, Dronfield, Matlock
Whittlesey, Thorney - Cambridgeshire
Bridport, Weymouth, Wyke Regis - Dorset
London
Markfield -Leicestershire
Hethe, Bicester, Bucknell - Oxfordshire
Steeple Claydon, Fenny Stratford - Bucks
Bishop's Castle, - Shropshire
Newcastle West, Co Limerick, Ireland
Navan, Co Meath, Ireland
Curragh, Co Kildare, Ireland
Colwich, Great Haywood, Staffordshire

Offline MaecW

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Re: Heraldry
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 21 October 15 12:16 BST (UK) »
There are many ways of differencing arms and cadency marks are but one. Thomas Browne, Garter King of Arms 1774-80, used the same arms as those described by you as Dorset Brownes, except that "a trefoil of the last" was replaced by "and as many trefoils slipped ermine" from which anyone viewing his arms could assume that he was a member of the same family but not the senior line.

If I understand you correctly the William Browne you mention is 15th century and you have yet to find the connection to John Herbert Browne of 18th century ?
I can see that the Arms seem to indicate a descent but you need to be aware that the application of Heraldic law in England has been a little haphazard (to put mildly) from time to time and it would not be impossible at times for someone to claim the Arms of a much earlier armiger if they had gone out of use. (Think of the current on-line bucket-shops selling false "this is your Coat of Arms" information).

I'd advise working carefully back from John Herbert and, if possible, forward from William, until you can prove or disprove the relationship.

Incidentally, the Thomas Browne, Garter, mentioned above  "was successively appointed Blanch Lyon (1727), Bluemantle (1737), Lancaster (1744), Norroy (1761) and Clarenceux (1773) before his appointment as Garter. Despite his success as a surveyor, he was reputed to have known little of heraldry and neglected his duties at the College." (wikipedia entry under "Garter King of Arms").  ;D

Good hunting !

Maec.
Baron (of Blackburn), Chadwick (Oswaldtwistle), Watkins (Swansea), Jones (x3 Swansea), Colton (Shropshire), Knight (Shropshire/Montgomery) , Bullen (Norfolk), White (Dorset)

Offline Annad

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Re: Heraldry
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 22 October 15 11:02 BST (UK) »
Thanks for the information and advice. I'm beginning to think John Herbert's arms are a bit of red herring where the tracing of his ancestors is concerned. You're right, he was born 18c and William 15c and I have traced JH's line back to his grt grandfather Thomas Browne in Dorset.  Thomas Browne did have connections with Devon which was how I came to find that William Browne's arms were similar, although I've had no luck in connecting the two families. I have a feeling though that you are correct in that the arms went out of use and later appeared with John Herbert. Annoying but more likely. Anyway thanks for your time in explaining some of the intricacies of heraldry to me.

Anna
Chesterfield, Staveley, Brampton, Whittington, Brimington, Newbold - Derbyshire, Dronfield, Matlock
Whittlesey, Thorney - Cambridgeshire
Bridport, Weymouth, Wyke Regis - Dorset
London
Markfield -Leicestershire
Hethe, Bicester, Bucknell - Oxfordshire
Steeple Claydon, Fenny Stratford - Bucks
Bishop's Castle, - Shropshire
Newcastle West, Co Limerick, Ireland
Navan, Co Meath, Ireland
Curragh, Co Kildare, Ireland
Colwich, Great Haywood, Staffordshire