Author Topic: Catherine/Katherine Flynn born Cork c1839/1840  (Read 1522 times)

Offline MattD30

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Catherine/Katherine Flynn born Cork c1839/1840
« on: Monday 12 October 15 22:52 BST (UK) »
Is anyone able to check parish registers (Roman Catholic) for Cork or advise me on the best way to trace my 4x great grandmother Catherine/Katherine Flynn? These are the facts I know so far:

Catherine married my 4x great grandfather John Donovan at St Mary's Roman Catholic Chapel, Moorfields, London in 1858 aged 17. Her father was named as Daniel Flynn (deceased).

On the 1861 and 1871 census Catherine just gave her place of birth as Ireland.

On the 1891 and 1901 census her place of birth is given as Cork, Ireland.

On all census returns her name is spelt Catherine, except on the 1901 census when she is down as Katherine.

On the 1861 census living with John and Catherine was another Catherine Flynn, widowed, aged 40.

I think I have found Catherine Flynn on the 1851 census in London with her family. There is a Daniel Flynn lodging with the family of Catherine McCarthy at Crown Court (bad writing but I think that's what it says). He is aged 40 and described as a Labourer. With him are:

Ellen - his wife
Catherine - his daughter

My Daniel was dead by 1858 when Catherine married John Donovan. At the time of the 1861 census Ellen was living at 49 Cartwright Squart, St Boltoph without Aldgate. With her are:

Francis - her son (aged 23)
John - her son (aged 20)
Francis - her brother in law.

I think I've also found Francis and John on the 1871 census in the same location, although there is a variance in the ages:

1871
Francis is 32
John is 29

There does seem be some variance in Ellen’s age between the 1851 and 1871 census returns:

On the 1851 census she is down as 36 making her born c1815
On the 1861 census she said she was 48 making her born c1813

That is reasonably consistent yet on the 1871 census she is down as 63 which makes her born in c1808.

So in conclusion:

Catherine/Katherine Flynn was born in Cork, Ireland c1838-1840.
Her father Daniel was  labourer who was dead by 1858
Daniel might have been born c1811 (according to info on the 1851 census)
Daniel's wife might have been named Ellen.
Daniel might have had a second wife named Catherine or sister in law (born c1820) who was widowed by 1861 and living with John and Catherine Donovan (nee Flynn)
Catherine may have had two brothers named Francis (born c1838-1839) and John (born c1841-1842)

Ellen was born c1813-1815
Francis might have been born in Dublin (if I have found the correct Francis on the 1891 census).

Any tips or help would be welcomed.

Matt


Offline Sinann

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Re: Catherine/Katherine Flynn born Cork c1839/1840
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 13 October 15 00:27 BST (UK) »
I think you have a very difficult task without her mother's name.
Some Cork records can be found here
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/
Those and others here but not searchable by name http://registers.nli.ie/
There is more than one Diocese covering County Cork
Cork and Ross, also part of it are in Kerry and parts in Cloyne
Add to that the fact the names Flynn, Catherine, Daniel and Ellen are quite common.
If you could possibly firm up her family connections or where in Cork they came from in UK records there might be a chance of finding her if the records survive.

Offline MattD30

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Re: Catherine/Katherine Flynn born Cork c1839/1840
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 13 October 15 21:01 BST (UK) »
I think you have a very difficult task without her mother's name.
Some Cork records can be found here
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/
Those and others here but not searchable by name http://registers.nli.ie/
There is more than one Diocese covering County Cork
Cork and Ross, also part of it are in Kerry and parts in Cloyne
Add to that the fact the names Flynn, Catherine, Daniel and Ellen are quite common.
If you could possibly firm up her family connections or where in Cork they came from in UK records there might be a chance of finding her if the records survive.

Hi

Thanks for those points. From the info I have gained from the later UK census returns (1891 and 1901) Catherine was born in Cork. I'll have to look at the printouts again but on the 1901 census her place of birth might be down as "Co Cork" which I assume could be short for County Cork, as I said I'll have to check.

As I mentioned on the 1861 census there is a Catherine Flynn aged 40 (widow) living with John and Catherine Donovan. Her relationship to John is given as 'lodger' and I suspect she might be either an aunt of Catherine Donovan (nee Flynn) or possibly mother or step-mother. At the moment I think she is an aunt but only as I have not found any record of a Catherine Flynn with a mother named Catherine.

I've been on the website you mentioned and I have found some Catherines who might fit. There is one Catherine Flynn born in Cork in 1838 whose mother is named as Ellen, however the father is down as Michael. I can't find any records of a Catherine whose father is named as Daniel, but in the record I've found above there is a Daniel Flynn recorded as one of the sponsors. I have wondered if he might be an uncle and if Michael had died and Daniel had brought up Catherine as his daughter. I have a few other candidates so I'll post some more info and update this post shortly.

Do you know anything about the sponsors on these Irish records? I assume they are likely to be relations but would they be close relations (siblings, uncles, aunts, cousins)? Is there anyway in identifying who the sponsors on these records where?

More info to follow soon

Many Thanks again

Matt

Offline Sinann

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Re: Catherine/Katherine Flynn born Cork c1839/1840
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 14 October 15 00:02 BST (UK) »
Co. Cork would be County Cork, which is a very big area to search, at a rough count over 80 parishes.

Sponsors are usually relations but there is no hard and fast rule, the women can be hard to follow due to married names and the men could just as easily be a cousin or a brother due to repeating first names. It's a lot easier to make use of the sponsors when you have a few siblings to work with.

I don't want to put you off but unless you can tie down the family in the UK records I can't see how you can be sure of anything you find in Cork.


Offline MattD30

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Re: Catherine/Katherine Flynn born Cork c1839/1840
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 15 October 15 23:57 BST (UK) »
Co. Cork would be County Cork, which is a very big area to search, at a rough count over 80 parishes.

Sponsors are usually relations but there is no hard and fast rule, the women can be hard to follow due to married names and the men could just as easily be a cousin or a brother due to repeating first names. It's a lot easier to make use of the sponsors when you have a few siblings to work with.

I don't want to put you off but unless you can tie down the family in the UK records I can't see how you can be sure of anything you find in Cork.

Hi

All good points. I did suspect that the sponsors were relations and this has helped a bit. I know that when she married John Donovan in 1858, Catherine Flynn put her father's name down as Daniel Flynn (labourer) and if I remember correctly he was deceased (according to the certificate). I have not found a Catherine Flynn born in Ireland to a Daniel Flynn, but on of them I have found does have a Daniel listed as a sponsor. Maybe he was an uncle who looked after her if her father died. I am currently seeing if I can find Daniel's death either in Ireland or England. If I can find this and work out when where he was born then that might help me.

I know there is a Daniel Flynn living in London in the right area at the time of the 1851 census who is about the right age and has a daughter named Catherine who is the correct age to be mine, so I am initially looking to see if there is a death of a Daniel Flynn between 1851 and 1858.

I also know at the time of the 1861 census there is a Catherine Flynn, widowed, listed as lodging with John and Catherine Donovan. She is old enough to be Catherine's mother or aunt, but as she is described as a lodger (rather than John's mother in law) I am inclined to think she is an aunt. Again if I can trace her on the 1841 or 1861 census and work out who she was married to then that might also help me.

With regards to the actually place I have had a bit of luck in possibly narrowing it down. I can across a print out of the census returns this morning and closer inspection of the later ones revealed that there was a bit more written regarding the place of birth. I have now got transcripts and the birthplace is down as "C.., Co Cork, Ireland". I think this could be Clonakilty or Cork as these areas are where I have found the most Flynns so far, but I am still investigating.

Thanks again.

Matt

Offline Sinann

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Re: Catherine/Katherine Flynn born Cork c1839/1840
« Reply #5 on: Friday 16 October 15 00:51 BST (UK) »
If you have an image of the original you could post the section with just the place name and perhaps someone here can make it out.

Offline gaffy

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Re: Catherine/Katherine Flynn born Cork c1839/1840
« Reply #6 on: Friday 16 October 15 04:24 BST (UK) »
Very common names, I imagine there may be a number of possibilities for a Catherine in Co. Cork with father called Daniel, eg. there was one baptised in Killavullen parish in 1837 with mother called Elizabeth Navan, another baptised in Youghal parish in 1840 with mother called Bridget Hays, another baptised in Newmarket parish in 1843 with mother called Johanna Dundrum. No doubt there may be others.

You really need more to tie it down from the GB records side.

Offline MattD30

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Re: Catherine/Katherine Flynn born Cork c1839/1840
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 17 October 15 21:21 BST (UK) »
Very common names, I imagine there may be a number of possibilities for a Catherine in Co. Cork with father called Daniel, eg. there was one baptised in Killavullen parish in 1837 with mother called Elizabeth Navan, another baptised in Youghal parish in 1840 with mother called Bridget Hays, another baptised in Newmarket parish in 1843 with mother called Johanna Dundrum. No doubt there may be others.

You really need more to tie it down from the GB records side.

Thanks for that info. What were/are the GB records and where can I locate them?

Matt

Offline MattD30

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Re: Catherine/Katherine Flynn born Cork c1839/1840
« Reply #8 on: Saturday 17 October 15 21:37 BST (UK) »
I've been having another look at the 1901 census and Catherine's place of birth is clearly down on the census as "Ireland, Cork".

Also on the 1891 census and 1901 census there were several people with the name MacCarthy either living with the Donovans or next door. This is interesting for two reasons:

Firstly when John and Catherine's son Florence Donovan married Emma Esther Murray in 1880 one of the witnesses was named "Mary MacCarthy"

Secondly on the baptisms I have looked at so far there was mothers named MacCarthy or sponsors with the surname.

Given that the name MacCarthy appears three times I think there might be a connection.

I will try and upload some images etc of these records shortly.

Matt