Author Topic: Burial with no death certificate  (Read 5163 times)

Offline aghadowey

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Re: Burial with no death certificate
« Reply #72 on: Wednesday 21 October 15 23:14 BST (UK) »
I was also wondering about the difference in dates from the date of death until the LoA.  I know even now it can take some time for Confirmation to be applied for in Scotland, however, it is relatively uncommon to take 2 years and I wonder if it is uncommon in NI too?

Not that unusual in Northern Ireland. Sometimes probate was only granted when a family realised they needed to sort out ownership or sale of land, sort out another person's affairs, etc.
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Offline Forfarian

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Re: Burial with no death certificate
« Reply #73 on: Thursday 22 October 15 09:10 BST (UK) »
I wonder why they had to apply for probate for an estate as small as 3 guineas? I would have thought the legal fees would come to more than that. Is there a story there?
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Re: Burial with no death certificate
« Reply #74 on: Thursday 22 October 15 09:49 BST (UK) »
I was wondering that as well. I think CD said he was a farmer, so perhaps she needed it to be able to continue farming or to be able to pass the farm onto children. She obviously didn't do it to claim his money!
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Offline aghadowey

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Re: Burial with no death certificate
« Reply #75 on: Thursday 22 October 15 09:57 BST (UK) »
You can check the Valuation Revision books (www.proni.gov.uk) to see approx. when the property changed hands.
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Offline california dreamin

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Re: Burial with no death certificate
« Reply #76 on: Thursday 22 October 15 10:26 BST (UK) »
Hi everyone
Just been catching up on this thread  :) I've had no internet this am and been on to BT for the last 1 1/2 hours!....However I digress.

Yes, Carol has identified my man for everyone.  There is more to the story which I have only uncovered.  John was a tenant of the Drapers Co.  The families on this estate struggled for many, many years with bad harvests and large debts accrewed over not only their lifetime but that of their fathers.  By the end of the 1800's the Drapers themselves wanted to pull out of their Irish estates and offered to sell the land to the tenant farmers (on 'favourable' terms) through the LPA (Land Purchase Act) many farmers did indeed purchase their property. I had seen the land xfer on the Valuation books and discovered that the land had xfered to a Rose McLoughlin. I had no idea who she was but a family story had described how a neighbouring farmer had agreed to look after the property when the family left (JD dead, Son 1 to Glasgow, Son 2 to England, widow to live with Son 2). The family never returned. 

The family that is on the farm on the 1901 census, and I have found through some serious 'sleuthing' was Roseanne McLaughlin a native of Kirley, she was originally a 'Conway' whose father is also a tenant farmer in Kirley.  Roseanne went to the States, married and had children.  Her husband had been a nightwatch man in NYC and was found dead and his body floating in the Hudson...after which she and her children returned to Kirley.  I find them living on the Donnelly farm in 1901 however by 1911 they are gone.  Roseanne and children leaving Ireland to return to the USA in the intervening 10 years.

Having gone to PRONI and having looked at all manner of documents.  I have  just found out John in fact did buy this land off of the Drapers though the LPA scheme some years prior to his death.  The LoA do actually mentioned this...and the fact that the wife had 'just sold the land' in 1900 seems to redeem Roseanne and her family (so not land grabbers after all!).  So I think John's wife sold the land to Roseanne McLoughlin (or to Roseanne's father Daniel in 1900) but as JD died without a will I think this is why she needed to go through the system to finalise his estate and more importantly sell the farm.

Hope this may clarify the situation some.  I have been working on this family for many years, and now feel I could write a book on the Donnelly's of Kirley.   :)

CD

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Burial with no death certificate
« Reply #77 on: Saturday 14 October 17 09:20 BST (UK) »
This is interesting though if it was in Scotland:  "If the person died in Scotland, you can register their death at any registration office in Scotland"
Very interesting. However that has not always been the case.

Sec 38 of the Registration (Scotland) Act, 1854 says, "The [informants] shall, within eight days next after the day of such death .... attend personally and give in formation to the Registrar of the parish in which such death occurred ...."

In the manual for Registrars, Vital Registration (1902) it says, "The practical rule is that all Deaths are registered in the parish or district in which they occurred, irrespective of their residence. If there is dubiety as to the place of death, say in the case of a person dying not in a house, that uncertainty is cleared up, generally by the 'Result of Precognition' forwarded in such cases by the Procurator-Fiscal to the Registrar who reports such deaths to the Procurator-Fiscal (Sec 39)."

So at the time of John Donnelly's death it was a requirement of the Act that a death be registered where it occurred.

Edit: forgot I had already answered this point ages ago :-[
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Offline california dreamin

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Re: Burial with no death certificate
« Reply #78 on: Saturday 14 October 17 11:32 BST (UK) »
Hi Forfarian,

Thanks for your continued interest!  And renewing this thread. After not making any progress with this search I abandoned it, and now am trying to make some inroads  for the search of  his burial in order to complete some further details for the family history.  I think your guidance about registering a death in Scotland is very helpful - particularly the 'within eight days next after the day of such a death". I just can't for the life of me understand how he could have been buried without a dc.  :-\

CD


Offline Rosinish

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Re: Burial with no death certificate
« Reply #79 on: Saturday 21 October 17 23:23 BST (UK) »
"was originally a 'Conway' whose father is also a tenant farmer in Kirley"

Now, taking things to extremes maybe but...

If the person who registered the death had a speech impediment...Connolly/Conley could sound like Conway  ???

I'm unsure what paperwork would have been needed back then as both my parents died in hospital & I had paperwork from the hospital to take to the registrars with both?

Annie
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