Author Topic: Help reading/translating this welsh pedigree in the Welsh Language  (Read 35982 times)

Offline despair

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 3,459
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Help reading/translating this welsh pedigree in the Welsh Language
« Reply #27 on: Sunday 15 November 15 21:51 GMT (UK) »
I don't know the contents of these documents,but a Denbighshire Archives search has the following
headings

Maurice Jones   Vaerdre Ucha   Gent  1620

Nathaniel Jones  Vaerdre Ucha  Gent  1652

Nathaniel Jones   Hendwr         Gent  1654

Nathaniel Jones   Hendwr                  1655/1657

Regards
Roger

Offline jones9

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 284
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Help reading/translating this welsh pedigree in the Welsh Language
« Reply #28 on: Monday 16 November 15 16:02 GMT (UK) »
hanes teulu,

Thanks for pointing this out - I wonder if the John Jones mentioned along with Maurice as the other church warden is the John Jones, Ty Ucha - especially bearing in mind his descendants were successively parish clerks of Corwen/perhaps Llandrillo (I remember Roger that you pointed out a Robert Jones who was parish clerk in Llandrillo).

Roger,

This is very interesting. I wonder if Faerdref Ucha is the same as Ty Ucha, Faerdref (where John and Thomas lived). I will try and make a trip to Ruthin to see this record.

In the mean time I have come across this journal article at the NLW about the Brogyntyn manuscript, which makes reference to poetry written by and also to Nathaniel Jones, among a collection of the descendants of Owain Brogyntyn, though I'm not sure whether or not that would include Nathaniel. On this topic however I notice there's a pedigree in Lloyd's History of Powys Fadog of a family in Faerdref/Maerdref, Llandrillo going back to Owain Brogyntyn though there's no obvious connections (the ffoulkes family who share 2 graves with the Joneses of Llechwedd, also goes back to Owain Brogyntyn too).


http://welshjournals.llgc.org.uk/browse/viewpage/llgc-id:1277425/llgc-id:1279553/llgc-id:1279558/get650             pp.279-80

Offline jones9

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 284
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Help reading/translating this welsh pedigree in the Welsh Language
« Reply #29 on: Monday 16 November 15 16:08 GMT (UK) »
I don't think the link is working, but if you search for 'Hendwr' in the welsh journals online page at the NLW, then the Brogyntyn manuscripts article I refer to is the one on the 2nd page (there is another article on the 1st page about this too)

Offline despair

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 3,459
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Help reading/translating this welsh pedigree in the Welsh Language
« Reply #30 on: Monday 16 November 15 20:24 GMT (UK) »
It seems a number of terms appear to relate to "townships" identical with individual properties,which doesn't help.

The following article(page 91) makes an interesting assertion viz, two versions of the pedigree(s?),completely leave out a Humphrey Jones of Tyfos(without explaining where he fits).If this is the vicar/clerk of the 1693 will,he mentions a nephew John Jones,but it is unclear,to me at least, whether he is the son of Roger,Robert or Elizabeth(Humphrey's nominated children).

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ghr/

Regards
Roger


Offline jones9

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 284
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Help reading/translating this welsh pedigree in the Welsh Language
« Reply #31 on: Monday 16 November 15 21:04 GMT (UK) »
Roger,

I will look into this further. Is the implication that Humphrey Jones is related to the Lloyds of Tyfos? - I have seen Humphrey's will though as he's a clergyman I wasn't sure he was from the parish originally - was it likely for a clergyman to become the vicar/rector of his home parish? I have checked his matriculation record (Oxford) and it doesn't give any hints at his parentage.

I notice Nathaniel is mentioned in this journal article - to my reading there's no pedigree information given/implication Humphrey is related?

Also if Humphrey is John Jones' uncle then he is probably the son of a brother who predeceased him as Mary Powell widow (who I suspected was his mother d. 1681)


Another interesting will is John ap Hugh ap Howell d.1663 who refers to Nathaniel Jones as his "kinsman". John ffoulkes is a witness.


Offline despair

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 3,459
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Help reading/translating this welsh pedigree in the Welsh Language
« Reply #32 on: Monday 16 November 15 21:10 GMT (UK) »
I'm not sure what the implication is-still trying to work it out!

Regards
Roger

Offline jones9

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 284
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Help reading/translating this welsh pedigree in the Welsh Language
« Reply #33 on: Monday 16 November 15 21:38 GMT (UK) »
I'm not sure if the Humphrey Jones, Tyfos, is the same as the vicar of Llandrillo anyway as the Denbighshire archives (DD/GA/305) have a Humfrey Jones Tyfos Gentleman living 1697, after the date the vicar of Llandrillo's will was proven!

Offline despair

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 3,459
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Help reading/translating this welsh pedigree in the Welsh Language
« Reply #34 on: Wednesday 18 November 15 10:35 GMT (UK) »
Possibly some interesting connections here:-

There is William David John(?) as son in law to John Jones(1705 will)
I think he is synonymous with William David/William Jones of Meiarth,Gwyddelwern,as there are wills at NLW fiked under both names dated 1715

Other wills for this property yield a similar duality in the name of John Salisbury/John Wynne dated 1676.There are later wills for the Wynnes here also Robert(1726),John(1755),Robert(1758)

On the "dating old Welsh houses" site there is a Llandrillo entry for a Maes Tyddyn,also believed to be Ty'n y Maes.
In 1716(the year after William David's death there is an indenture from Samuel Parry of Plas Vaerdre to Robert David for the sale of Ty'n y Maes
There is then an MI for Robert David in 1758,aged 91(1667-1758?) and a wife Catherine in 1759 aged 94((1665-1759)
There is a will for Robert David,Gent,Ty'n y Maes,1758
This later data together with a later quotation of 1789  "...Robert Lloyd,late of Ty'n y Maes,now Ty Ucha..."I can't quite tell from the (lack of)context whether the property is synonymous or whether Robert Lloyd lived at  two different addresses.
So there is William David/William Jones and Robert David(could he also be "also Jones?) and then there was that John David......

Regards
Roger

Offline despair

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 3,459
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Help reading/translating this welsh pedigree in the Welsh Language
« Reply #35 on: Wednesday 18 November 15 18:33 GMT (UK) »
I was trying to look at the "David Lloyd" question,in particular whether there was more than one David Lloyd concerned.Although the date of the first was too early for him to be directly relevant this is what I found

David Lloyd,Pennant,Llandrillo,Will(1678)
Amongst others his wife is named as Elizabeth vch Robert

There is then a will of 1690 for John Robert(brother of Elizabeth?) which in the text says "...of Pennant alias (?) Moelyscedwy.I think the implication is that Moelyscedwy is one of those "townships" and Pennant is in it(?)
In this he leaves some sort of interest to his brother Thomas in a property called Tyddyn y Ty Croes.
Could this be the property where Dorothy Jones is in her  will of 1828?(a lot,lot later I know)

There is a separate will of 1700 for Elizabeth vch Robert herself(1700) in which she names her brother Thomas ab Robert,implying Elizabeth,John and Thomas are siblings(?) with father Robert (unknown).

Regards
Roger