RASC certificate 1944 where do i go to find records. Identify uniform abt 1918

[margymore]

No death certificate needed for an application for his service record for someone born that long ago because the U.K. Ministry of Defence would regard him as being deceased.

Glad they dont require it for that would be a bit of an obstacle, thx for info

[margymore]

Just to add, William was born in 1889, so he would be aged 49 yrs in 1939, is that too old to enlist?

[KGarrad]

No death certificate needed for an application for his service record for someone born that long ago because the U.K. Ministry of Defence would regard him as being deceased.

Not so!

You need to provide proof that the deceased died more than 25 years ago.

From that page I linked to, it says:
Under the scheme, and in recognition of the duty of care owed to the family of the deceased subject, for a period of 25 years following the date of death of the subject and without the consent of the next of kin, MOD will disclose only certain information. (Unless the consent of the next of kin is obtained).

After this period, and if it is held, in addition MOD will disclose without the requirement for next of kin consent units, dates served and ranks attained.

The only time a death certificate is not required is if the deceased died in service.

[ScouseBoy]

Just to add, William was born in 1889, so he would be aged 49 yrs in 1939, is that too old to enlist?

  He may have been a specialist in a trade or profession necessary to RASC for example.   My dad worked for the NAAFI  as a civilian in August 1939 and he was about 23 or 24 years old.   If he was to serve overseas, then he had to be in uniform, to protect him under the Geneva Convention.  NAAFI staff overseas were in the RASC/EFI  or ATS/EFI  for female staff.   It may be a possibility that your man  was in RASC/EFI 

[Per Quist]

ScouseBoy's take on the dates/nature of his period/periods of service sounds right.

In August 1920 the Army created a new numbering system for soldiers. Prior to that date soldiers were issued with a regimental number by the regiment or corps in which they first served, and if they changed regiments or corps, which many did during WW1, they would be issued with a new number. Many units used duplicated number blocks, and so soldiers in different units could have the same number.

The 1920 numbers were also issued by the unit in which a soldier was serving at that time, or into which he later enlisted as a civilian recruit, however the 1920 Army numbers were issued from different number blocks each of which was unique to each regiment or corps, and that number was also unique to each soldier and it didn't change if he changed regiments or corps.

His 1944 Army number was 198530, in 1920 the RASC was allocated the number block of
1 to 294,000.

In WW1 the ASC and in WW2 the RASC was a huge corps, but the army was hugely downsized soon after WW1 and I can't imagine that the RASC had at least 198530 in 1920, and so he must have broken his service after WW1 and then reenlisted later, and probably nearer to WW2.

That is confirmed by ScouseBoy's information that his father enlisted into the RASC in September 1939 and was allocated the lower Army number of 147733.

In February 1942 the Army numbering system was changed again, and from that time onwards soldiers were issued with a unique and non unit related 8 digit service number, but soldiers who were already serving in February 1942 retained their existing Army number.

So he enlisted in WW2 between September 1939 and February 1942, or was conscripted if he was on the British mainland, but not if he was in Ulster because there was no conscription in Ireland in WW1 nor in Ulster in WW2.

His uniform is standard British Army Field Service Dress uniform which was worn by the British Army from the early 20th century until the 1930's, and there is nothing on his uniform to indicate his unit.

However, he appears to have 3 WW1 campaign medal ribbons, and if he enlisted after the start of WW1 the first medal ribbon is probably the 1914-1915 Star Medal, the other two are the British War Medal and the British Victory Medal and his rank as was said above, is Staff Sergeant/Serjeant or equivalent, such as Colour Sergeant/Serjeant and if that was his rank at the end of the war, that is the rank in which his BW and BV medals will have been issued.

He could have served in one or more different regiments or corps in WW1, and he might not have served in the ASC in WW1.

All of the WW1 medal records have survived, and any units, ranks, numbers, which applied to him whilst he was serving in a theater of war will be listed on those.

You can search for those here...
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/british-army-medal-index-cards-1914-1920/

Presumably you are certain that he only had one forename, but bear in mind that those medal records can list either forename/forenames...first forename + additional forename initial/initials...or just a first forename initial.

There are 27 records for William Hagan some of which had additional forenames.

10 for W. Hagan but most of them have additional forenames and only one of them has W. as the first initial.

Take it with a pinch of salt, but the likeliest prospect, rank wise, is a guy, or guys, in the Lincolnshire Regiment.

It really depends on how long he remained in the Army between 1918 and August 1920.

[margymore]

Hi Per Quist,
that is the sort of info I was hoping for from someone with a keen eye. the medal info. Well done. I had bought info on a couple of medal cards a while back, but i did not know what i was looking for. as they do not give much info. not sure if i am allowed to or not, i attached pics of same.

Moderator Comment. Sorry. No you are not allowed to post them. Images have been removed in accordance with Rootschat Copyright Policy. Please see here for more info.
www.rootschat.com/forum/copyright.php 

I follow your reasoning and that of ScouseBoys about the regiments numbers.  so he likely went back to civilian life in between. on the groni record it shows his occupation as still staff sargeant RASC in 1946, died from TB.

Also good to know about the conscription not compulsory in WWI in Ireland or WWII in Ulster. for i had wondered about that - i had thought maybe Ulster would be for 1939.-but not so.

I double checked his birth records, -his church baptism, and the groni records only show William Hagan and no other initials or names. So I am trying not to make assumptions that he may have another name.

So my next step is to contact MOD for his records. if they require proof of death is the groni death record sufficient? or what might I need?

[Per Quist]

Part 1 of 2

I was expecting all the flim flam about the proof of death needed not needed issue that another poster mentioned.

1) I never mentioned the partial withholding of part of the record for service persons who died less than 25 years ago, except in respect of next of kin, and I specifically didn't mention that issue because you already had the link to the MOD site on which that information is clearly stated, and I automatically assume that you aren't dumb and would have already read and been aware of that for yourself.

2) What I did say was that for someone born in 1889 the MOD would not require proof of death, and I said that because their service record application page doesn't mention at what age they would assume a person to be deceased, but it's 116,which he would have been in 1989.

3) As for the 25 year rule and it's exception for next of kin, if you are his next of kin it isn't necessarily a requirement for you to have his death certificate in order for you to be able to prove that.

4) What application the MOD asks for in order to be able to identify the correct record, and what information they need in order to be able to do that, are two different things, and obviously the more information that you can provide the better, provided that all of your application information really does apply to the same person, because if it doesn't your application is likely to be rejected, and succeed or fail the fee is still £30, and btw, if you do apply and get a record that is too badly photocopied to be fully legible, use their complaints procedure and ask for a replacement.

That happened to someone recently, first copy was almost illegible, second copy was fine, somebody had copied it and had obviously not bothered to check the quality of the copy.

5) The MOD has a computerised data base index of the Army service records that they hold, and it contains, surname, forename initial/initials, date of birth, Army number.

So IF someone's surname, forename initial/initials, and date of birth were a unique combination, that should be enough to get the correct record.

As of course will be just a service number, provided that person can be proven to be deceased.

Jeez, the familiar fetish of officialdom for initials instead of full names.!

[Per Quist]

Part 2 of 2

6) Re what ScouseBoy said in reply to your query about his WW2 enlistment age if the 1889 man and the WW2 198530 soldier were the same person, yes just so.

People tend not to realise just how many military support personnel it takes to keep one service person on active service, even in peacetime, and even more so in wartime, and every support job that can be done by an older person releases a more physically able person for front line service.

Sure in peace time there is a mandatory age limit, but in a major war things are necessarily more flexible.

Can't recall the exact dates, but a guy born late 19th century was a Royal Marine Gunner pre and during and post WW1, he became a senior gunnery instructor, rose to the rank of Commissioned Gunner, it's an odd type of Royal Navy/Royal Marine rank, he was commissioned but he wasn't an officer, it's sort of a very senior Warrant Officer rank. Early 1920's the RM was hugely downsized and a lot of officers were compulsorily retired or took a financial bonus to retire, but they stayed of the annual Navy List and were liable to recall in a national emergency.

WW2 he was either recalled or volunteered, he was late 50's by then, served to the
end of WW2, by which time he was about 60ish. Now he probably didn't serve in action, he probably served ashore in Britain as a gunnery instructor in the RN gunnery school.

Long service chevrons, worn on the sleeve of a soldier, corporal or below, each stripe denoting a period of several years good conduct, 2, 6, 12, 18, 23, 28 years so 6 chevrons, and someone who enlisted about 18 would usually be retiring on full pension by then, additional chevrons could be gained by future service in the Territorials for example, but there is an account of one guy who had 9 chevrons and two Long Service and Good Conduct Medals who enlisted into an infantry regiment in 1901 and who was discharged 50 years later !, He must have well into his 60's. ! No idea why that was, but perhaps they had a job that he could perform so they let him stay on, so there are always exceptions.

Anyway, if your 1889 man really is WW2 soldier 198560 his service record will answer that question.

GRONI = General Register Office Northern Ireland, what record is "the groni record", is that his death certificate, does it list his age. ?

WW1 and WW2 conscription also applied to civilians in regard to war production work, but that didn't apply to civilians in Ireland in WW1 or in Ulster in WW2 either.

7) Religious affiliation is always relevant in Ulster, and in WW1 the Ulster Presbyterian Church created local lists of Presbyterians who had served in the forces, for survivors as well as for casualties, and they are often listed on commemorative plaques in their local church, and records for a lot of those are available.

8 ) If he died in service, up to 31st December 1947, or as a direct result of wounds or illness related to military service up to that date, he should be listed in the Commonwealth War Graves Commission database, but he isn't, and if he is entitled to inclusion, and that can be documented and proven, the CWGC will create a record for him.

Perhaps you didn't read the service record application page properly after all, it tells you there...

blah, blah, blah..."and the provision of a death certificate (except where death was in service)."

Actually they're wrong about that because something such as a probate record might provide the necessary proof.

http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead.aspx

9) There aren't too many possible medal records for him, and often some of the possibles can be excluded by cross checking them with the casualties on the CWGC database.

For WW1 Irish casualties, they can often be identified here...
http://imr.inflandersfields.be/index.html

There were two birth registrations in Ulster in 1889 for William Hagan neither had additional forenames, both in the July, August, September quarter, the other one was in the Lisburn Registration District which is on the outskirts of Belfast, and there was one in County Monaghan i the January, February, March quarter, but parents have 6 weeks in which to register a birth and so that one could be for a birth in late 1888.

The Londonderry Registration District registration was volume 2 page 161 and you canget a copy of that from GRONI.

I'll have a look at your medal records now.

[Per Quist]

http://www.greatwar.co.uk/medals/ww1-campaign-medals.htm

Private William Hagan T342949 ASC enlisted 24th June 1916 discharged 15th August 1917 because of sickness.

Actually, if he was on the British mainland in June 1916 he was conscripted, because conscription was introduced on 2nd March 1916.

The T prefix to his regimental number = horse transport.

K.R. = Kings Regulations Para 392 is Paragraph 392 = the list of reasons for which a man could be discharged from the Army.

(XVI) = no longer physically fit for war service

List ASC 1492 refers to a list which is similar to the medal lists which were lists of entitlements to campaign medals, the medal record cards were created by reference to the medal rolls.

List ASC 1492 refers to the Silver War Badge list for the ASC, an SWB was a badge which was issued to men who were discharged because of wounds or sickness, the SWB lists exist and his says that he never served overseas, so no campaign medal entitlement, unless he reenlisted, which wasn't likely, at least not unless he spoofed his identity, because prior to the introduction of conscription everyone within the relevant age group had to register their details, and after conscription was introduced they were all legally deemed to already be enlisted and nobody could then voluntarily enlist if they were already registered, and they had to wait until they were ordered to report for training.