Author Topic: George Park born Edinburgh about 1812.  (Read 1160 times)

Offline julie7239

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Re: George Park born Edinburgh about 1812.
« Reply #9 on: Tuesday 10 November 15 22:56 GMT (UK) »
Another daughter born in 1843, Sarah Maria Park, in North Street Lambeth. Father George, Engineer and mother Sarah.

Have you got the family in censuses 1841-61 to help with their early married years and children?

Monica

On the 1861 census, Samuel is age 10, Sarah is 45, born 1816, Sarah Maria age 16, and Charles James. age 7.

Offline julie7239

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Re: George Park born Edinburgh about 1812.
« Reply #10 on: Tuesday 10 November 15 22:57 GMT (UK) »
1861 Census entry here in Plumstead, Lewisham:

Sarah Park 45 wife of Engineer in the R.N b. Coldstream Scotland
Sarah Maria Park 16 b. Lambeth
Samuel Dalton Park 10 b. Woolwich
Charles James Park 7 b. Woolwich

Monica

yes, that is the information I have.

Offline MonicaL

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Re: George Park born Edinburgh about 1812.
« Reply #11 on: Tuesday 10 November 15 22:57 GMT (UK) »
Yep, just found that one  :)

Which is your line of their children?

Monica
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Offline MonicaL

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Re: George Park born Edinburgh about 1812.
« Reply #12 on: Tuesday 10 November 15 23:02 GMT (UK) »
Ok, your previous post here, www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=734075.0  :)

So, connection to son Samuel?

Monica
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Offline julie7239

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Re: George Park born Edinburgh about 1812.
« Reply #13 on: Tuesday 10 November 15 23:09 GMT (UK) »
Yep, just found that one  :)

Which is your line of their children?

Monica

Samuel Dalton Alexander Park, born 1851 in Greenwich, London, who was a master mariner in the merchant navy, married Rebecca Hartley Wool in 1884, and their daughter Beatrice Elizabeth Park, is my ancestor.  He was obviously away at sea a lot and the relationship was complicated, she was listed as a widow on the 1891 census.


Offline julie7239

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Re: George Park born Edinburgh about 1812.
« Reply #14 on: Tuesday 10 November 15 23:13 GMT (UK) »
Ok, your previous post here, www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=734075.0  :)

So, connection to son Samuel?

Monica

Beatrice Elizabeth was born in 1876, and Herbert in 1875.  People have speculated about what happened, but given that he was away at sea a lot, and that he did give the children his name when he married Rebecca, I think there is a good chance he was the biological father of the children.  Rebecca was the daughter of a respectable tailor, living at home, and then with her sister when her mother died when she was 21 and her father remarried, and she had two children a year apart.  I think Samuel was probably the father.  Rebecca's second husband didn't give the children his name.  Beatrice gives Samuel Park as her father on her marriage certificate.

So weird that Rebecca put "Thomasina Wilson" on the original birth certificates, with no father's name given, and then changed the children's names when she married Samuel Park.


Offline Forfarian

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Re: George Park born Edinburgh about 1812.
« Reply #15 on: Wednesday 11 November 15 09:23 GMT (UK) »
This has prompted me to ask a question about English birth certificates in general.

In Scotland, an illegitimate child can only be registered under its father's name if the father accompanies the mother to the Registrar's when she goes to register the birth. In that case the certificate has both the father's name and the mother's name on it, and the birth is indexed under both surnames.

Does the same apply to English ones? Specifically, are they indexed under both names if both parents sign the original certificate together?

(I know a birth can be re-registered many years later if the parents eventually marry; this question relates only to the original certificate.)
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline julie7239

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Re: George Park born Edinburgh about 1812.
« Reply #16 on: Wednesday 11 November 15 19:41 GMT (UK) »
This has prompted me to ask a question about English birth certificates in general.

In Scotland, an illegitimate child can only be registered under its father's name if the father accompanies the mother to the Registrar's when she goes to register the birth. In that case the certificate has both the father's name and the mother's name on it, and the birth is indexed under both surnames.

Does the same apply to English ones? Specifically, are they indexed under both names if both parents sign the original certificate together?

(I know a birth can be re-registered many years later if the parents eventually marry; this question relates only to the original certificate.)

I am not completely sure, your google search is as good as mine.  I think at least it used to be that the father had to sign something or be physically present for his name to go on the birth certificate when parents were not married.  I am not sure if that is still the case, I think I have heard single mothers say that they name the father on the birth certificate, but that might be with him present even now.

As far as I know, the birth certificate is only indexed under the child's given surname, so if the parents were not married and the father signed so that the child took his name, then the child's birth certificate would only be indexed under his name, just as any other birth.

I think you are saying that Rebecca knew what she was doing when she gave her name as "Thomasina Wilson", and no father named, on her children's birth certificates, as a hint to the children of who their father was if he refused to be named.  That is what one person speculated.  I think she gave a totally made up name so as not to shame her own family, and Samuel's family, and he had gone to sea promising to come back to marry her, which he did eventually, just after he qualified with his final certificate as a master seaman.  This wasn't one accidental pregnancy, Rebecca had two children about a year apart, and these were the only children she ever had, and she was a young woman who married twice.  Rebecca gives her occupation as "none" on the 1881 census when she was living with her sister and brother in law, so somebody was supporting her financially and presumably paying for her children to be well cared for elsewhere - as the other thread shows, Beatrice,  age 4 on the 1881 census, was staying with a William Luckie, omnibus driver, and his wife.  This was the heyday of the baby farmer, so Beatrice and Herbert must have been able to avoid that because somebody could afford to pay for decent care.

On Beatrice's birth certificate it says she was born in Chelsea.  I would have to dig further to find out exactly where, and hence the circumstances.

I don't know how much you read of the other thread, but I don't think it was the same Samuel Park shown on the 1911 census as a 60 year old naval pensioner, because I looked at that original document and on it he gives his birthplace as Hampstead, which is a long way from Greenwich.  That document also says he is a boarder, living with a Sarah White, head, widow, whose occupation is "washing, at home".  I think the odds are that when Rebecca lists herself as a widow on the 1891 census, that Samuel was lost at sea.  I haven't found death records for Samuel anywhere.  And why would Samuel be living in a London boarding house in 1911 when the rest of his family, parents, brother and sister, had all moved down to Devon by then? I did read that deaths at sea are recorded differently, and finding them is complex.

Offline dowdstree

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Re: George Park born Edinburgh about 1812.
« Reply #17 on: Wednesday 11 November 15 20:38 GMT (UK) »
Hi Julie,

Nothing to do with the topic but you are correct that even today the father must accompany the mother to register the birth if they are unmarried so that the child can take the father's surname. If the father cannot/will not go then the child has no father recorded. Had this on good authority from my niece who has two kids and is not married to either father ::)

Good luck with your search,

Dorrie
Small, County Antrim & Dundee
Dickson, County Down & Dundee
Madden, County Westmeath
Patrick, Fife
Easson, Fife
Leslie, Fife
Paterson, Fife