Author Topic: John Kirkpatrick and Elizabeth Begg Kirkcudbrightshire, Kirkpatrick-Durham, Kir  (Read 2123 times)

Offline issykirkpatrick

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Hope some one can help I'm stuck with this couple John Kirkpatrick and Elizabeth Begg who are the parents on the marriage certificate of William Kirkpatrick who married Margaret Graham in 1868 at Ardwall, New Abbey. I have found various birth dates and various different places of birth for them and I may have them in the 1841 and 1851 census's in Kirkpatrick-Durham and Kirkbean, they may have had 8 children but I cannot find a marriage certificate or banns for the couple so don't feel I can verify anything. I have tried Scotlands People, Find My Past and Latter Day Saints but had no luck on any sites on their marriage. I have checked and re-checked all my other information leading back to 1968 it all appears correct. For months I have kept coming back to this couple and tried different approaches but to no avail and it's costing a fortune, I'm just about ready to give up.

Any help, hints, tips will be gratefully appreciated.

Regards

issy

Offline MonicaL

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Re: John Kirkpatrick and Elizabeth Begg Kirkcudbrightshire, Kirkpatrick-Durham, Kir
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 14 November 15 12:29 GMT (UK) »
Hi Izzy

It is frustratring when the records start to dry up before 1855 and the start of official registration in Scotland. Only about a third of BMD events are to be found prior to 1855 in the Old Parish Registers, for all sorts of reasons.

Even if you were able to find a marriage entry for them, being pre 1855, likely it would be no more that a one-liner with no personal details relating to parents (at best, sometimes only a mention of bride's father's name, but most often not).

A good idea to look to possible death certs as if they died after 1855, normally full names of mother and father were included for the deceased if known to the informant.

Somebody has this online tree on a/try http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/34279853/person/19661807424, which includes the original image of John Kirkpatrick's death in 1892 in Kirkbean at the age of 88, already a widower of Elizabeth Begg. His father showing as a Dunholm Kirkpatrick, a carter. The informant did not know/remember the name of John's mother unfortunately. John and Elizabeth (Begg) had a son called Dunholm didn't they. It was Dunholm that reported his father's death.

Dunholm, son, also reported the death of his mother, Elizabeth Begg, in 1889. Showing as married to John Kirkpatrick. This connects with 1891 and son Dunholm with his family, and father living with them by then. The original census image from SP likely would show John as a widower.

The notes above are from the original images from SP that have kindly been included here on this family tree (available via a subscription).

Monica  :)
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Offline ColC

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Re: John Kirkpatrick and Elizabeth Begg Kirkcudbrightshire, Kirkpatrick-Durham, Kir
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 14 November 15 12:30 GMT (UK) »
It is possible it might have been a civil marriage and not recorded by the church at that time. Statutory Registration began in Scotland in 1855.

Or, I see that Elizabeth was noted as born Ireland on the 1841 census. Given their location it would not have been difficult for them to have been married in Ireland.

Colin
Clarke, Trickett, Orton, Lawless, Norton, Detheridge, Kirby, Goodfellow, Wagstaff, Lowe, etc.

Offline MonicaL

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Re: John Kirkpatrick and Elizabeth Begg Kirkcudbrightshire, Kirkpatrick-Durham, Kir
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 14 November 15 12:32 GMT (UK) »
1851 census, which I think you have, but just for reference here now:

John Kirkpatrick 41 ploughman b. Troqueer, kirkcudt
Elizabeth Kirkpatrick 42 b. Kirkpatrick, kirkcudt
Ann Kirkpatrick 14 b. Kirkpatrick, kirkcudt...name given for Elizabeth's mother by son Denholm
David Kirkpatrick 12 b. Kirkpatrick
Lewis Kirkpatrick 10 b. Kirkpatrick
Dennorn Kirkpatrick 8 b. Kirkbean...name given for John's father by son Denholm
Martin Kirkpatrick 5 b. Kirkbean...name given for Elizabeth's father by son Denholm
Robert Kirkpatrick 3 b. Kirkbean
William Kirkpatrick 7 b. Kirkbean

Address: Dumbar, Kirkbean

Monica



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Offline MonicaL

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Re: John Kirkpatrick and Elizabeth Begg Kirkcudbrightshire, Kirkpatrick-Durham, Kir
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 14 November 15 12:41 GMT (UK) »
Colin, re a possible civil marriage in Scotland, not quite the same laws for Scotland at that time. A good short read here www.gla.ac.uk/schools/socialpolitical/research/economicsocialhistory/historymedicine/scottishwayofbirthanddeath/marriage/

Just a few reasons why people are not often able to find a BMD may involve:

  • it cost money to register, not something all could afford
  • many registers have been lost or destroyed over the years
  • In the main, the records to be found on Scotlands People (and indexed via Family Search) relate to those records for the established Church of Scotland, ie Presbyterian. Only a few years ago, SP included what records have now been digisted and are availble from registers for the Roman Catholic Church. Scottish church history is very fragmented in the 1800s. These records for other breakaway religions/churches are not normally found on SP.
  • for background, burial registers were the worst maintained of all.

Scotlands People have numerous help notes on this range of topics.

Monica  :)
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Offline ColC

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Re: John Kirkpatrick and Elizabeth Begg Kirkcudbrightshire, Kirkpatrick-Durham, Kir
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 14 November 15 12:51 GMT (UK) »
Thanks Monica but as they were married around 1826 I thought it might be appropriate, things were begining to change around that time.

Colin.
Ayrshire
Clarke, Trickett, Orton, Lawless, Norton, Detheridge, Kirby, Goodfellow, Wagstaff, Lowe, etc.

Offline MonicaL

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Re: John Kirkpatrick and Elizabeth Begg Kirkcudbrightshire, Kirkpatrick-Durham, Kir
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 14 November 15 12:58 GMT (UK) »
John Kirkpatrick showed as born in Troqueer c. 1806-10, with his father named as Denholm (will be various spelling variations on this name for sure). No mother named.

Something to consider for the Kirkpatricks...

There is a Denholm Kirkpatrick, with wife Margaret in 1851
   
Denholm Kirkpatrick 77 carter b. Notgrove (?spel), dumfries
Margaret Kirkpatrick 60 b. Dumfries, dumfries
Ann Kirkpatrick 24 daughter b. Troqueer, kirkcudbright
James Morran 5 grandson b. Troqueer, kirkcudbright

Address: 18 Howgate Street, Troqueer

In John Kirkpatrick's death in 1892, his father Denholm showed as having been a carter.

Denholm Kirkpatrick and Margaret Edgar married or banns as showing here https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTLB-VMN  Lots of children showing for them including a possible entry for a son John here https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYMT-FQ6

Monica
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Offline MonicaL

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Re: John Kirkpatrick and Elizabeth Begg Kirkcudbrightshire, Kirkpatrick-Durham, Kir
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 14 November 15 13:34 GMT (UK) »
In Elizabeth Begg's death registration, her son gave her parents' names as a Martin Begg and Ann Cavins. The occupation for Martin Begg showed as mill wright. Wondered whether this connected to this 1841 census entry in Kirkbean:

Martin Begg 50 Mill Wright
Ann Begg 52
William Dixon 20 blacksmith
Maryan Martin 8
John Martin 4
Elisabeth Martin 1
Mary Stevenson 15 female servant

Address: Preston Mill, Kirkbean

Someone is quoting Martin Begg's death as being in 1855 in Kirkpatrick Durham. I can see that entry in the index of SP. If the correct entry for Martin, Elizabeth's father, death certs for 1855 are a wonderful find. For that year only, along with other info, they should include a list of the children born to the deceased (assuming married) and list names, current ages as at 1855, and years when any may have predeceased parent. Looks hopeful  :)

Other info in various other place such as www.aganderson.me.uk/webtrees/individual.php?pid=I2323&ged=Anderson or http://kayll.me.uk/anderson/f24.html (just search 'begg').

Monica

Added: Goodness, lucky (in the way we use those words  ::)) Ann Caven/Begg also died in 1855 in Kirkpatrick Durham. Double confirmation. Unusual to have this this way....
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Offline issykirkpatrick

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Re: John Kirkpatrick and Elizabeth Begg Kirkcudbrightshire, Kirkpatrick-Durham, Kir
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 17 November 15 23:23 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for the reply's MonicaL and ColC I will be on my day's off work at the end of the week so will be able to look further thanks to your help. Meanwhile Bitza sent me this
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1emzE__GBANazdIQUJNQlQ1a2c/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1emzE__GBANMW0xUUpfeWxETlk/view?usp=sharing
I can't make out much at all from the Martin Begg one but can make out more form the Ann Begg one. I've not come across this type of certificate before so will need to take more time to understand them. Do you's think this might be family I'm looking for? I don't think a marriage will be found for John Kirkpatrick and Elizabeth Begg so I suspect I will have to go down the route of births and deaths.

Thanks so much for your time

Regards

issy