Author Topic: Romany DNA - what would you expect to see?  (Read 13794 times)

Offline hurworth

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Re: Romany DNA - what would you expect to see?
« Reply #54 on: Monday 13 November 17 20:20 GMT (UK) »

Which ones are Romany?

I didn't say they were.  I was pointing out that it's not necessarily an Irish or Scottish surname.

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Offline sallyyorks

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Re: Romany DNA - what would you expect to see?
« Reply #55 on: Monday 13 November 17 20:26 GMT (UK) »

Which ones are Romany?

I didn't say they were.  I was pointing out that it's not necessarily an Irish or Scottish surname.

Yes come to think of it,  its probably more of a Welsh surname?

My post in reply to richarde though was about not hearing of any Powell 'Romany' before. But then I don't always think you can go by surnames anyway.


England
Tustin,Belcher,Brewerton,Deakin,Lawton,Grouts,Newey,Ingleson,Metcalf,Barton,Woods,Jenkinson,Hardisty,Betts,Benson,Jolly,Courtner
Wales
Smith,Edwards
Afro-Caribbean
Gardner

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Offline richarde1979

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Re: Romany DNA - what would you expect to see?
« Reply #56 on: Tuesday 14 November 17 07:59 GMT (UK) »
Sally you seem to want to argue for argument's sake. I am a researcher with decades of experience, and am satisfied my research is well evidenced and sourced, and will stand by its own merits when published. You are welcome to buy those books, and take an opposing view if you wish, no bother to me, people are free to disagree, there is no right or wrong in history, just arguement, and counter arguement.

My interpretation of the Tudor laws is nonetheless shared by the leading Romani expert on the planet. That's good enough for me:

"By Cromwell's time a century later, it had become a hanging offence not only to be born a Gypsy, but for non-Gypsies to associate with Gypsies."

The Pariah Syndrome Ian Hancock. 1987.  Lecturer in Romani studies at the University of Texas, Austin, Director of the Romani Archives and Documentation Center, Romani representative to the US Holocaust Council. Author of over 300 books and articles on Romani people.
Bellenger, Sebire, Soubien, Mallandain, Molle, Baudoin - Normandy/London
Deverdun, Bachelier, Hannoteau, Martin, Ledoux, Dumoutier, Lespine, Montenont, Picard, Desmarets - Paris & Picardy/Amsterdam/London
Mourgue, Chambon, Chabot - Languedoc/London

Holohan, Donnelly, McGowan/McGoan - Leitrim, Ireland/Dundee, Scotland/London.

Gordon, Troup, Grant, Watt, McInnes - Aberdeenshire, Scotland/London

Offline richarde1979

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Re: Romany DNA - what would you expect to see?
« Reply #57 on: Tuesday 14 November 17 08:13 GMT (UK) »
For others who might be interested, here is a link to a short essay I have written for my own family tree on my maternal haplogroup U3b. It is very rare in Northern Europe. Some genetic websites claim it is totally non existent in the U.K, others existent but at rates of well under 0.5%. I'm proof it does exist, and have to date found five others who have tested with it here, four of whom were Romani, two Boswells. The non-Romani carrier is possibly also a maternal descendant of Romanies, as she has no idea from where it originates in her tree. It is the dominant maternal haplogroup amongst all Western and Northern European Gypsy populations so far extensively DNA tested , i.e Spain, Portugal, Lithuania and Poland, so is very likely the same in U.K.

Since it is consistently linked to non-Gypsy nomads from it's first appearance in Iron Age Europe, through to the modern day, potentially it may provide clues to the early formation of the Romani people and culture.

https://www.docdroid.net/06KIP7C/haplogroup-u3b.pdf
Bellenger, Sebire, Soubien, Mallandain, Molle, Baudoin - Normandy/London
Deverdun, Bachelier, Hannoteau, Martin, Ledoux, Dumoutier, Lespine, Montenont, Picard, Desmarets - Paris & Picardy/Amsterdam/London
Mourgue, Chambon, Chabot - Languedoc/London

Holohan, Donnelly, McGowan/McGoan - Leitrim, Ireland/Dundee, Scotland/London.

Gordon, Troup, Grant, Watt, McInnes - Aberdeenshire, Scotland/London

Offline richarde1979

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Re: Romany DNA - what would you expect to see?
« Reply #58 on: Tuesday 14 November 17 08:22 GMT (UK) »
I am unaware of anyone outside the Romani community ever testing as Y Haplogroup H1a - M82 with marker 425 = 0 null, and have read every major Romani DNA study to date (and a few minor ones besides!) I would be very surprised if it has turned up in Roman and Medieval graves in this country. I would like to see your source and link for that please Sally, that would be deeply significant if true.

I do remember quite a hubub caused a few years back when a DNA sample from an 11th century grave in Norwich supposedly contained 'Romani mtDNA', but it was thoroughly debunked afterwards. The scientist who made the discovery pointed out he had from the start listed a Gypsy connection as the least likely of all scenarios, but the media had misinterpreted or twisted his words and not bothered to read the actual report. It turned out to be from a person of Balkan or Near East extraction, possibly bought back as a slave during the crusades.

Also maybe need to clarify my statement on  It is estimated as 1,000- 2000 years old and is found in India today.  H1a - M82  is exclusive to the Romani community. No other M82 population so far has been identified as carrying M82 with the 425 = 0 null marker mutation outside the Romani Gypsy population. So a result of H1a - M82 makes Romani ancestry a strong possibility, which can be further confirmed by the presence of the marker 425 = 0 null.

No, what it means is that you have a shared ancestor with someone from the Indian sub continent. Unless you can provide the paper trail proof of Romany in your family, it is still conjecture.
There are remains found in Roman and Medieval graves in this country with these markers.
Bellenger, Sebire, Soubien, Mallandain, Molle, Baudoin - Normandy/London
Deverdun, Bachelier, Hannoteau, Martin, Ledoux, Dumoutier, Lespine, Montenont, Picard, Desmarets - Paris & Picardy/Amsterdam/London
Mourgue, Chambon, Chabot - Languedoc/London

Holohan, Donnelly, McGowan/McGoan - Leitrim, Ireland/Dundee, Scotland/London.

Gordon, Troup, Grant, Watt, McInnes - Aberdeenshire, Scotland/London

Offline richarde1979

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Re: Romany DNA - what would you expect to see?
« Reply #59 on: Tuesday 14 November 17 08:46 GMT (UK) »
The Powells are a very interesting family, of clear importance to the British Romani community of the past. I have dedicated an eleven page chapter to the Powell family, and their allied family the Finches, in the first part of my upcoming five volume work on the Early British Gypsy Families. I aim to begin publishing summer next year. Together the work comprises over 1,100 pages and attempts to trace all Gypsy families mentioned in Tudor and Stuart records up to the early part of the 20th century. It's companion piece is a hundred page work I have written on the Tudor Gypsies which I aim to publish early in 2018. The Powells are mentioned there also. There are many sources for Powells in the Tudor and Stuart era which unambiguously state them to be 'Egyptians' or 'Gypsies'. They are one of the better documented families in that period. They continue to appear in the Georgian era, and also in the Victorian era and early 20th century, though had decreased significantly in numbers by then.

But I think we are in danger of derailing this thread now from its original subject Romany DNA, so I will leave it at that. Perhaps those who are genuinely interested will search out my work when it's available.


I have not come across any 'Powell' Romany before. I think it is more of an Irish or Scots surname?.



There's many Powells in the Forest of Dean records.
Bellenger, Sebire, Soubien, Mallandain, Molle, Baudoin - Normandy/London
Deverdun, Bachelier, Hannoteau, Martin, Ledoux, Dumoutier, Lespine, Montenont, Picard, Desmarets - Paris & Picardy/Amsterdam/London
Mourgue, Chambon, Chabot - Languedoc/London

Holohan, Donnelly, McGowan/McGoan - Leitrim, Ireland/Dundee, Scotland/London.

Gordon, Troup, Grant, Watt, McInnes - Aberdeenshire, Scotland/London

Offline sallyyorks

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Re: Romany DNA - what would you expect to see?
« Reply #60 on: Tuesday 14 November 17 12:20 GMT (UK) »
Sally you seem to want to argue for argument's sake.

Our debate started when you replied to my reply to another poster

I am a researcher with decades of experience, and am satisfied my research is well evidenced and sourced, and will stand by its own merits when published. You are welcome to buy those books, and take an opposing view if you wish, no bother to me, people are free to disagree, there is no right or wrong in history, just arguement, and counter arguement.

My interpretation of the Tudor laws is nonetheless shared by the leading Romani expert on the planet. That's good enough for me:

"By Cromwell's time a century later, it had become a hanging offence not only to be born a Gypsy, but for non-Gypsies to associate with Gypsies."

The Pariah Syndrome Ian Hancock. 1987.  Lecturer in Romani studies at the University of Texas, Austin, Director of the Romani Archives and Documentation Center, Romani representative to the US Holocaust Council. Author of over 300 books and articles on Romani people.

Ian Hancock is also, quote, a 'political activist'. He has his opinions on Cromwell, as many 'political activists' do, but I have mine.
I have books by Hancock, but personally I prefer Angus Fraser's book, The Gypsies

The Pariah Syndrome (Hancock) is a book about the holocaust. I am in no doubt whatsoever that Gypsies, over time, have been persecuted in Europe for their ethnicity and during the second world war they were victims of an horrific and sustained genocide.

My point and questions to you are not about the second world war. I have repeatedly asked you to provide primary source evidence that

'...a whole lot of gypsies were rounded up and sent just because they were gypsy...'
'... it certainly was a crime just to be born a Gypsy in England...'
'...The last execution were reportedly carried out in the 1650s...'
'...abundant examples of Romanies transported to the colonies, the earliest dated to 1669,...'
'...Romany surnames are also present in the lists of vagrants earlier rounded up in the capital and transported 1618-1620...'
'... it was a specific offence to be an 'Egyptian' until 1780s...'
'...executed for it in the United Kingdom, in the century from 1560-1660, and have several different examples with names,...'
'...examples from 1669 onwards of Romany people (including Smiths) transported to America. 100% indisputedly Romany people, with evidence again, from both sides of the pond. I won't go into detail here, but again this will be in my books..'
'...I speculate may have been Gypsies, were actually members of the Powell family who were rounded up in the capital as vagrants and shipped to Virginia 1618-1620...'

I understand you are writing a book and keeping your research back, but The Old Bailey Online and The Middlesex Sessions Rolls, to mention two primary sources, are already freely available online and in the public domain. Could you please provide names, dates, places and primary source evidence for the above claims made.




England
Tustin,Belcher,Brewerton,Deakin,Lawton,Grouts,Newey,Ingleson,Metcalf,Barton,Woods,Jenkinson,Hardisty,Betts,Benson,Jolly,Courtner
Wales
Smith,Edwards
Afro-Caribbean
Gardner

Offline sallyyorks

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Re: Romany DNA - what would you expect to see?
« Reply #61 on: Tuesday 14 November 17 12:23 GMT (UK) »
The Powells are a very interesting family, of clear importance to the British Romani community of the past. I have dedicated an eleven page chapter to the Powell family, and their allied family the Finches, in the first part of my upcoming five volume work on the Early British Gypsy Families. I aim to begin publishing summer next year. Together the work comprises over 1,100 pages and attempts to trace all Gypsy families mentioned in Tudor and Stuart records up to the early part of the 20th century. It's companion piece is a hundred page work I have written on the Tudor Gypsies which I aim to publish early in 2018. The Powells are mentioned there also. There are many sources for Powells in the Tudor and Stuart era which unambiguously state them to be 'Egyptians' or 'Gypsies'. They are one of the better documented families in that period. They continue to appear in the Georgian era, and also in the Victorian era and early 20th century, though had decreased significantly in numbers by then.

But I think we are in danger of derailing this thread now from its original subject Romany DNA, so I will leave it at that. Perhaps those who are genuinely interested will search out my work when it's available.


I have not come across any 'Powell' Romany before. I think it is more of an Irish or Scots surname?.



There's many Powells in the Forest of Dean records.

Yes you are writing a book, but it is usual in Family History circles to provide evidence. It is one thing to make a claim about our ancestors but if we do that we also need to list the primary source too, in order for other researchers to know that the claims are true and documented.
Census
Parish records
Criminal records
Newspapers
Ships manifests and so on

Could you please post the primary source evidence, re bolded in your quote above, that you have found about the 'Tudor' era 'Powells'?
England
Tustin,Belcher,Brewerton,Deakin,Lawton,Grouts,Newey,Ingleson,Metcalf,Barton,Woods,Jenkinson,Hardisty,Betts,Benson,Jolly,Courtner
Wales
Smith,Edwards
Afro-Caribbean
Gardner

Offline janicejo

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Re: Romany DNA - what would you expect to see?
« Reply #62 on: Tuesday 14 November 17 19:58 GMT (UK) »
SallyYorks and Richarde1979:  I have read your posts and found them very interesting.  I'll let the two of you handle the historical disputes, as I have been a gypsy for only 2 years now.   The only thing I can add is my father was told something before he went off to WW2, that made him think he was Jewish!  That's how impossible it was for his mum to tell him her family was gypsy and in the community while back in England, before they immigrated in 1912.  My Dad lived his entire life thinking his dark complexion was the result of a sunburn, and my brother and I, well we're dark because we're Californian.  I encourage everyone to come out, tell their family stories good and bad, so we can preserve the history of the English gypsy community.