Author Topic: James Joseph Williams  (Read 1917 times)

Offline davidgoldburn

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Re: James Joseph Williams
« Reply #27 on: Thursday 23 March 17 14:43 GMT (UK) »
Has any one got any bright ideas of how to look for my mysterious Annie/Johanna Steward/t?

Thanks in advance.

David

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Offline Annette7

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Re: James Joseph Williams
« Reply #28 on: Friday 24 March 17 03:30 GMT (UK) »
Knowing the family were Catholic, surely this must be her on 1871 Census at 5 Cottage Court, St. John the Evangelist, Westminster, London:

Thomas Stewart    50                       born Ireland
Margaret Stewart   38                          ditto
William Stewart 15                           born Westminster, London
John Stewart 12                                   ditto
Jane Stewart 18                                   ditto
Johanna Stewart 7                                ditto

I note her birthdate is said to be 14/2/1864 and later census also states she was born in Westminster.

This could be her birth entry:

Johannah Steward    June qtr.1864 Westminster   mmn Donovan (per GRO index)
(her brothers John and William also registered as Steward mmn Donovan)

1881 Census still living at St. John the Evangelist, London

Thomas Steward  50 (same age as on 1871 census?)   Labourer     born Ireland
Ann Steward 50           born Ireland
Anne (or Annie) Steward 17   born London

Now is wife Ann the previously named Margaret who has also changed her name or has Thomas remarried??

But then again: 1861 Census, St. Margarets, Westminster

Thomas Steward  30    born Limerick, Ireland
Jane Steward 25          born Cork, Ireland
Jane Steward 8            born Westminster, London
William Steward 4            ditto
John Steward 3                ditto
James Steward 1              ditto
Margaret Donovan 70  mother in law   born Cork, Ireland

So, from census it looks as if Thomas' age in 1871 should have been 40 not 50 and are his 3 'wives' Jane, Margaret and Ann all the same person!!  I think they are.

Marriage: Dec.qtr.1851 St Giles, London - 2 of many on the same page are a Thomas Steward and Margaret Donovan.

The last census indicates Johanna/Annie and Henry Williams were married ca.1880.

Could this possibly be their marriage?:

Harry Williams and Annie Steward    Dec.qtr.1881 Lambeth

They would only have been ca.17 but possibly due to prospective birth of son Thomas bc.1882!!

Certainly sounds like the surname was actually Steward rather than Stewart (which I guess could sound the same in an Irish accent).

Annette
Scopes (One-Name Study - Worldwide)
Suffolk - Grist, Knights, Bullenthorpe, Watcham
Scotland - Spence, Horne, Cowan, Moffat
London -  Monk

Don't walk behind me, I may not lead.   Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow.   Just walk beside me and be my friend.

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

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Offline davidgoldburn

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Re: James Joseph Williams
« Reply #29 on: Friday 24 March 17 08:06 GMT (UK) »
Hi Annette,

Working backwards-

The birthdate comes from the 1939 census.

Henry   Williams   07 Apr 1865   Male   General Labourer Retired   Married   113   1   
Johannah   Williams   14 Feb 1864   Female   Wife Unpaid Domestic   Married   113   2   
Ellen   Williams   06 Dec 1904   Female   Hospital Cleaner   Single   113   3

I have got a copy of the harry marrying annie wedding certificate, I will dig it out and scan it tonight- I believe from memory her dad on the certificate is not Thomas- So I ruled it out. There is nothing to say they didnt "run away south of the river to get married"?

I had also got to the Margaret being a donnovan, do you think she was Margaret Jane? And when the MIL arrives she reverts to Jane on the census?

I am guessing that Jane-Anne is an easy confusion to the census gatherer especially with a thick irish accent?

The other confusing thing is that Thomas Williams born in westminster in 1883 there are two- I got the one with no maiden name from the GRO records- he was a illegitimate child rather than anything to do with a Henry-

All very interesting.

Thank you,  i will add the 1881 and 61 census's to my tree!

Cheers
David

Offline Annette7

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Re: James Joseph Williams
« Reply #30 on: Friday 24 March 17 12:36 GMT (UK) »
The area the Steward's lived in came under the registration district of St. Geo. Hanover Square and wonder if this is the birth for Johanna/Henry's son Thomas:

Thomas Williams    Mar.qtr.1883 St. George Hanover Square   mothers maiden Steward.

Still doesn't help with finding parents marriage though and I've searched all over England not just in London.

Annette
Scopes (One-Name Study - Worldwide)
Suffolk - Grist, Knights, Bullenthorpe, Watcham
Scotland - Spence, Horne, Cowan, Moffat
London -  Monk

Don't walk behind me, I may not lead.   Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow.   Just walk beside me and be my friend.

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline davidgoldburn

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Re: James Joseph Williams
« Reply #31 on: Friday 24 March 17 14:04 GMT (UK) »
Hi Annette,

OOhh that is a possibility, I was looking in Westminster! Will order it and see what it says :)

I get the impression that Henry and Annie/Johanna never got married?!? But clearly they were very catholic and did things properly, as all the children were baptised!

Will look at the marriage cert again tonight, there is a reason why I discounted it...and I cant remember what it is now.

Thanks again.

David

Offline davidgoldburn

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Re: James Joseph Williams
« Reply #32 on: Friday 24 March 17 18:09 GMT (UK) »
The wedding certificate for Annie Steward ages 19 of 11 Owl street has her dad has Harry Steward Who is a labourer. That doesn't match Thomas- Who we assume to be her da
Henry Williams age 21 is a potter- which does match some of the census's later lives at 25 agnes street and his dad is William Williams- a Painter.

Wedding was 10th of Oct 1881.

The age of 19 makes her birth date of 1882- which doesn't match
Henry is supposedly 21 which makes a birthdate 1860- a lot older than what the census's and the 1939 record.

The witnesses were Edwin Hall and Catherine Cormack.

Hope that helps?

Offline Annette7

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Re: James Joseph Williams
« Reply #33 on: Saturday 25 March 17 01:54 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for posting this.   Shame it's not the right one but good to have the details recorded on this thread should anyone else reading this come up with the same suggestion.

Hopefully the birth certificate you've sent for is the right one.

However, it certainly looks like they didn't marry - at least not in the UK.

Annette
Scopes (One-Name Study - Worldwide)
Suffolk - Grist, Knights, Bullenthorpe, Watcham
Scotland - Spence, Horne, Cowan, Moffat
London -  Monk

Don't walk behind me, I may not lead.   Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow.   Just walk beside me and be my friend.

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline davidgoldburn

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Re: James Joseph Williams
« Reply #34 on: Saturday 01 April 17 09:10 BST (UK) »
Thomas Williams born 17th December 1882 21 Douglas Street
Father Henry Williams
Mother Annie Williams nee Steward
Potter Labourer

That is definitely the older brother :)

Thank you Annette

Offline davidgoldburn

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Re: James Joseph Williams
« Reply #35 on: Tuesday 05 September 17 18:39 BST (UK) »
To add to the Williams info.

William John Hazell married Rose Williams 22nd May 1920 at St Gertrude Church.

Both living at 217 Southwark Park Road, Bermondsey.

The catholic cathedral data suggested that it was a Frederic John Hazell that married Rose in 1920...I cant find any Frederick marrying a Rose... other than William.. hey ho..

Leaving this out here just encase someone is researching the Hazell Family!

Cheers

David