Author Topic: CORK and CLARK surnames  (Read 1587 times)

Offline Fordyce

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CORK and CLARK surnames
« on: Sunday 27 December 15 12:14 GMT (UK) »
My CLARK line from Deskford goes back to Woodside and Connage in Rathven (to a 1726 marriage); another CLARK line from Fordyce gets involved with adjacent Carnoch. I have come across, in the index to the Scottish Catholic Archives (www.scottishcatholicarchives.org.uk/Portals/0/bc002.pdf), several documents dated 1632 and 1696 which refer on a James CORK being granted the lands of Carnoch. One 1696 entry is "Sasine of the lands of Carnoch in favour of James CLARK, folder of Carnoch".

My primary question is whether the surnames CORK and CLARK are variations of each other. In other words, did the surname CORK morph into CLARK? The actual documents are held in Special Collections in Aberdeen University but I'm not able to consult them for months yet, and anyway they might not provide any an answer to my question.

Re "folder": a mistype for "holder" or "feuar" or something else?

Offline J11

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Re: CORK and CLARK surnames
« Reply #1 on: Monday 28 December 15 09:34 GMT (UK) »
I've had a look at various surname databases and it doesn't appear as a variation.  The OPRs only have 50 Cork baptisms in the whole of Scotland pre-1800 of which none are in Banff or Moray and only one in Fife.  Clark is listed as the 14th most common surname in Scotland and was certainly in use in the Middle Ages in its various English or Latin forms.  I can't see the writers of the documents in 1632 and 1696 both mishearing the name or even that it is very likely that they would get confused with Clark being such a common name.  Equally, I can see a mistranscription of Clark to Cork if a document was very faded or damaged but it doesn't seem likely that both documents would be in that condition in exactly the same place.  However, it could be that the first was very damaged and the writer of the second was copying that first document hence the consistency. 

Could someone have chosen to call themselves Cork instead of Clark?  Anything is possible but I'd want to see some proof!

Offline Fordyce

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Re: CORK and CLARK surnames
« Reply #2 on: Monday 28 December 15 23:20 GMT (UK) »
I've solved the puzzle in part - the Index I quoted from is incorrect. "James Cork" should read "James Cock", he being the Town Clerk of Banff and "Colector for the shyre of Banff" (1693). I know Cock to be a local surname (which morphed into Cook in some family lines), and there are plenty of references to him and his doings in the New Spalding Club's book "Records of the County of Banff 1660-1760"  - e.g. under that book's extract of the 1790 Valuation Rolls for Raffen Parish: "Cranoch James Cock ffortie pounds". That'll do me!

I now wonder whether the reference to "James Clark" is in reality "James Cock" - I very much suspect it is. A false trail laid by supposedly an impeccable source just goes to show.

Perhaps someone near Aberdeen & NES fam hist soc could look up the 1696 Sasine for James Clark or Cock in their Banffshire index? If not, I'll do it myself in March 2016!

Offline rodweir

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Re: CORK and CLARK surnames
« Reply #3 on: Monday 23 January 23 09:19 GMT (UK) »
Hi Fordyce hope this thread is still alive as I'm wondering if the Clark of Carnoch you mention has a Helen?
My 5x GGM was a Helen Clark and I think she tried to marry a George Imlach 1725 as attached

17 JULY 1725 GEORGE IMLACH in Farnachtie & HELEN CLARK in Carnoch were matrimonially contracted & tho the Pby. [Presbytery] of Fordyce denyed them marriage by reason of too near affinity yet one of the Episcopal Clergy married ym [them] August ye [the] 31st. [Vol.2 p.15].

There is nothing to say this marriage didn't happen but 5 years on

16 OCTOBER 1730 JAMES WEIR in Farnachtie & HELEN CLARK were matrimonially contracted & marryed Nover. 10th. [Vol.2 p.23].

I have assumed the marriage to George didn't happen but has anyone any clues that this is the same Helen Clark.
A George Imlach in Carnoch is witness to 2 of their baptisms but then if George married into the family you would expect that. And he is there in other Clark baptisms of that period.
I have tried to read the Fordyce session minutes and haven't seen any mention of the marriage anomalies. There may also be a chance that George converted to another religion after this experience.
Through a family member who researched Helen we know Helen had a sister Elizabeth who married a Simpson in Crossburn Keith but little else is known of our Clark family.


Offline Fordyce

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Re: CORK and CLARK surnames
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 31 January 23 18:42 GMT (UK) »
rodweir, just spotted your post. I've got some details of George IMLACH, Helen CLARK et al. Here's my observations:

- George IMLACH was married to a Jean REID; they had children bapt 25 Nov 1717 born in Carnoch (where a Helen CLARK appears as a witness) and bapt 12 Dec 1719 in Farnachtie. I would say this is pretty good evidence the George IMLACH who married Jean REID and the George IMLACH who married Helen CLARK are one and the same person.
- He might be the same person who appears several times as a witness back in Carnoch, earliest I have is 2 Mar 1729. [This appears to be proved by two entries in the Rathven OPR for the same event: oddly, one records him as 'George Imlach in Farnachie' and the other as 'George Imlach in Carnoch'! I know there are two versions of the OPR because bewilderment has arisen on other occasions why my transcription and my cousin's transcrption differed.]
- A Helen Clark (I) appears as a witness in 1717, 1718, 1719, almost certainly she was in Carnoch.
- But she cannot be the wife of James WEIR, whose wife Helen CLARK (II) had children right up to 1752, meaning she couldn't have been born much before 1712 and certainly wouldn't have been old enough to witness 1717-1719.
- By the same reckoning, I doubt Helen CLARK (II) could have married in 1725; I would suggest that it was Helen Clark (I) who married George IMLACH.

- I have positioned Helen Clark (I) as a dau of Charles & Agnes CLARK, born abt 1680, one of a potential family of eight.
- I have positioned Helen CLARK (II) as a dau of James CLARK & Isobel RITCHIE, where James CLARK is a son of said Charles & Agnes CLARK. In other words Helen CLARK (II) is a niece of Helen Clark (I).
- My own line comes in with John CLARK deemed brother of said Charles CLARK.
- I'm reasonably happy I've got a rationale for these connections, but open to evidence that would point otherwise.

- In my scenario there is no sister Elizabeth (in fact 'Elizabeth' doesn't appear at all in my CLARKs) so I'd be interested in the details behind that conclusion.

- That marriage to Jean REID raises even more questions about that 1725 OPR entry. Might "Too near affinity" means they were cousins?

Welcome your comments to move this forward.

Offline rodweir

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Re: CORK and CLARK surnames
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 01 February 23 09:58 GMT (UK) »
Hi Fordyce thanks for your thoughts, originally the "too near affinity" I took as being same as you but back then cousins married so this statement would be seen more often so changed my thinking as to her doting on him meaning Helen could be younger rather than older in age and a concerned father with some influence could have tried to stop the wedding. This is only a thought.
Source of Elizabeth Clark marrying a Simpson comes from Helen's great-grandson the Rev James Weir of Drainie born 1815 a reliable source, you would think.
Interestingly John Clark in Hilton was married to a Janet Hossack. Another or same Janet Hossack married a John Simpson 1693 Cullen possibly tying a link to the Clark, Hossack and Simpson families.
John Clark and Janet also had a Helen 23 AUGUST 1726 George Imlach was there at the baptism.
Is this the John Clark you mention, son of Charles?
A possible link therefore is through James Lobban:
In 1732 JAMES WEIR & HELEN CLARK in Farnachtie had a Child baptized named HELEN. James Lobban and Jas. Clark witnesses. [Vol.1 p.53a].
A James Lobban resided in Hilton so can this link Helen Clark to Hilton? But then James Lobban was a bit of a baptism bomber and James Clark; could be any of them.

The next child 15 SEPTEMBER 1734 JOHN Son to JAMES WIER & HELEN CLARK in Thorniebank was baptized. Witnesses John Wier & John Clark there. [Vol.1 p.56].

I believe the "John Clark there" statement is an error as I can find no John Clark in Thorniebank at the time. I take the witnesses as possible fathers or brothers of the father and mother as James' father was called John, but he also had brother called John.

It is James and Helen's 7th child that brings in James in Burnside.

5 OCTOBER 1746 ELSPET, daur to JAMES WEIR & HELEN CLARK at Shore of Buckie was baptized. Witnesses James Wilson younger in Bognoranach & James Clark in Burnside of Buckie. [Vol.1 p.85a].
But then James is another frequent witness.
but James Clark marries Elspet Andrew 1751
and we have
3 NOVEMBER 1754 WILLIAM ANDREW & JANET WEIR in Findochty were Contracted, consigned pledges & marryed Nover. 19th. [Vol.2 p.32a 33a].
just 3 years later.

And we have
14 OCTOBER 1730 PATRICK GREEN and MARGT. WEIR in Rathven? were Contracted & Consigned pledges & marryed 1 of Nover? [Vol.2 p.23].
I believe this couple to be catholic so no records.

20 DECEMBER 1732 JAMES Natural Son to JAMES CLARK & JEAN WATSON in Arradoul was baptized. Witnesses James Wier in Thornybank & James Stables in Burnside of Rathven. [Vol.1 p.52].

then
[2 AUGUST 1734] JAMES CLARK & MARGT. GREEN in Arradoul were Matrimonially contracted & married Aug. 13th. [Vol.2 p.29].
maybe a catholic conversion so again limited records

and in return
Said day [12 AUGUST 1739] JAMES Son to JAMES WEIR & HELEN CLARK in Thorniebank was baptized. Witnesses James Clark in Arradoul. [Vol.1 p.67a].

 Does this match your findings?



Offline Fordyce

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Re: Helen CLARK & George IMLACH
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 02 February 23 13:59 GMT (UK) »
Quite a lot to respond to! As I see it there are three threads to your query, so I'll address each one separately.

First is Helen Clark w/o George Imlach and witness 1717/8/9.

"Too near affinity" : I found this. Key sentence: "In the country districts other Bishops and himself knew that not only marriages of too near affinity, but marriages of too near consanguinity, were of sadly frequent occurrence in the homes of the poor." - The Bishop of Peterborough, Hansard debate 12 Jun 1882 re Marriage With A Deceased Wife's Sister Bill.

There's the affinity that's 'too near' - e.g. wife dies, husband marries her sister. The original text expands upon the issue being debated. Even though this is 1882, the phrase with that meaning is surely equally applicable back in the day.  So I'm satisfied that that turn of phrase is nothing to do with age. And indeed this implies the couple involved are older rather than younger.

Here's the link: https://hansard.parliament.uk/lords/1882-06-12/debates/4208ee11-6540-473d-8f04-48ac71977c72/MarriageWithADeceasedWifeSSisterBill—(No75)

I must confess it's not obvious who is being too close to whom, and in what way. But there is scope. I have both Jean Reid and Helen Clark born about 1690-95. I personally would focus on Helen's mother Agnes (w/o Charles Clark) whose surname I haven't been able to identify (I'll come to why I have that parentage later). Suppose it was Reid? 

The Helen Clark who was witness 1717, 1718, 1719 wouldn't be the Helen Clark who married James Weir - with her last child born 1752, she'd be far too young to be a witness then. I believe it's safe to disassociate the two of them. In the same way, the Helen Clark who married James Weir would have to be exceptionally (but not impossibly) young to have married George Imlach in 1725. Given that the other Helen Clark was probably still around at the time, I take the view that on balance it was the Helen Clark of full age who married him (especially in view of my comments above), not the minor Helen Clark.

Part two to follow, when I surface from having too near affinity with dusty parliamentary records.

Offline Fordyce

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Re: Helen CLARK's parentage
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 02 February 23 18:55 GMT (UK) »
Quote
Source of Elizabeth Clark marrying a Simpson comes from Helen's great-grandson the Rev James Weir of Drainie born 1815 a reliable source, you would think.
So you'd think! But in my experience, not always so. If my uncle couldn't get his gdmother's identity right 50 years ago (in Banff), I can envisage issues with a gtgdson 150 years ago not getting it right! Right Rev or not.

You didn't name the parents of Helen Clark (w/o James Weir).

But I found in Ancestry a tree (being one of 60 all told) which asserts that your Helen was bpt 2 Dec 1705 and her sister Elizabeth (who married a Simpson) bpt 25 May 1700 both in Portsoy to Alexander Clerk. Is that how you see it?

Or the astonishing 498 trees mostly seemingly copying each other which have her parents as Andrew Clark & Anna Gordon, bpt 1 Sep 1709 Cullen (but there is no sister Elizabeth).

On my part, I concluded that Helen Clark w/o James Weir is sister of James Clark (h/o Margaret Green). I have concluded that their parents are James Clark & Isobel Ritchie who had three children 1716, 1718, 1722, and I've added a further four all born before the Rathven OPR started, the eldest of whom is Helen, predicted born about 1708, plus a speculative fifth (named Anna) born 1720. The binding aspect of all this is their presence in Arradoul.

If you can clarify how you see it, I can respond accordingly. 'Cos I have different thoughts on all three!

Offline rodweir

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Re: CORK and CLARK surnames
« Reply #8 on: Friday 03 February 23 12:27 GMT (UK) »
Hello again, I have copied nobody and at the moment I'm open to all possibilities.
Your right though things need to be triple checked.
I do not know who Helen's parents are and our chat is part of me finding part of the proofs to the answer. Helen seems to link to all the Clark in a way.
Why I trust the good reverend in telling us of Elizabeth Clark is he gave us another bit of information that a granddaughter of the said Elizabeth Clark a Elizabeth Simpson married a James Mitchell from Park Home Dufftown 4th March 1820 this is tracible or proven, and therefore possibly makes her mother Jean Turner who is recorded having resided in Crossburn before being buried 30 JAN 1821. Dying of course first. Why parentage is an uncertainty because there is a Margaret Turner marrying a John Simpson 1787 in Keith, but no Jean recorded to my knowledge but like you say digital records are to be questioned, so until I have seen the original.
 Also, the reverend tells of a brother of said Elizabeth Simpson a James Simpson having been a banker in Quebec who is also tracible. There is also an Elizabeth Clark as a witness in 1749 Keith proof of existence maybe but not where from so not of who she exactly is.
So, my thoughts are open on the subject and when you look at the burial records for Rathven for the period and see so many Catholic burials you get to understand there are so many unrecorded people not to be found in the OPR other than witnesses or the occassional mixed religion marriage. I believe there is a link to Fordyce as James Clark in Arradoul witnesses a baptism there, a link to Keith or rather Crossburn and Newmill, and a link to William Scrougie therefore Banff and a link to Cullen but how it ties in I don't know. And for us Weir -Gollachie, Slackend and Tannachie are places of origin.
I am also interested in.
14 APRIL 1717 WILLIAM ANDERSON in Carnfield & MARJORY NUCKEL his wife had a Son baptized Called JOHN. Witnesses John Paterson, John Anderson, Janet Weir & Isobel Anderson. [Vol.1 p.5].
If William, John or Isobel Anderson is in any way related to Arradoul. I don't think so but would be interested to know who they are as William and Marjory move to Tarmore Keith and maybe link 3 generations later and if you have come across them in your research.

 Did your Anna Clark Born 1720 by chance marry a Bennet?

And have you a place for this Janet Clerk with a witness Anne Gordon,

24 FEBRUARY 1721 JAMES GEDDES at Shoar of Buckie and JANET CLERK his wife hade a child baptized called ANNE. Witnesses Anne Gordon elder & Anne Gordon younger. [Vol.1 p.22].

because there is also regarding Geddes
3 JUNE 1726 GEORGE GEDDES in Belly [Bellie] parish was matrimonially contracted with MARGARET ROTSON [ROBERTSON] in Connage consigned pledges but were not marryed and yis? [this] MARGARET her pledge being forced & marryed to JO. CLARK. [Vol.2 p.16] [See July 8, 1726].

8 JULY 1726 JOHN CLARK in Woodside & MARGARET ROTSON [ROBERTSON] in Connage were matrimonially contracted, consigned pledges & marryed July 26th. [Vol.2 p.16].
and could this be in compensation?

6 AUGUST 1726 JAMES CLARK in Burnside brought a testificat from Deskford of his being contracted wt. ISABEL GEDDES yr [there] & marryed September 20th. [Vol.2 p.17]. [Deskford entry dated September 20th].

And there are always these earlies from Deskford regarding Rathven Clark making for another earlier generation.

13 APRIL 1677 JAMES CLARK in Rathven paroch & HELLEN COOK heir contracted a band of mariage did find caution* according to the order of the kirk. Archibald Huie [Howie] William Rotsone [Robertson]. [Deskford OPR, Vol.2 p.4a].
A possible link to the later Clark Robertson marriage.
27 MARCH 1675 JOHN CLERK in the paroch of Rathven & JANET GRAY in this paroch contracted a band of mariage & did devowe their pledges according to the order of the kirk. [Deskford OPR, Vol.2 p.8a].
Why they couldn't call one child Dereck or something to make it easy I'm surprised the wife isn't called James or John.
 I'm interested in your Isobel Ritchie but unsure how you got there and who the extra children are.
Also your thoughts on
15 MAY 1738 JEAN LESLY Relict of the Deceast James Clark in Woodside was buried.
And thanks for your replies