S27900 marker

[RobertCasey]

First of all - thanks for one of the few good discussions about YDNA on this forum.

Here are comments about S27900:

1) Its location under P312 is very unique and not common among people with English speaking ancestors. It belongs to the major branch ZZ37_1 which is directly under P312. Out of all 4,980 NGS (Big Y) testers, only 31 resided under ZZ37_1. This is around 0.6 % of the P312. So this part of the P312 haplotree has very few living descendants compared to other haplogroups. This is good and bad.

2) It is bad since you will have to proactively recruit to make progress that other more common haplogroups enjoy. Your expectations need to be adjusted to be less than what other haplogroups enjoy for robust sample sizes where significant progress is being made. Your testing should be considered more of an investment in the future that will eventually reveal the same progress of other more common haplogroups.

3) It is good since the few people that are related will be related and you will have no shortage of private YSNPs to test as your line will have 10X the mutations since it has 1 to 100 less testers. It is like having a rare surname - easy to sort out who is related and who is not. As shown by some of your unique YSTR marker values, this is a direct result of being so genetically isolated from the rest of us (in my case - R-L226).

4) Since you belong to a very small scope branch of P312, there will probably have great diversity of the older parts of ZZ37_1 but you may have very specific ties to much smaller geographic areas for younger branches. Having a major Welsh concentration is possible when you belong to a very small scope branch.

5) My project, R-L226, is around 1,500 years old with 645 testers at 67 markers and has 102 NGS tests to date (ten on order now as well). ZZ37_1 is 4,100 years old with only 31 NGS testers. We are now getting one and two new private mutations for many new Big Y testers. Your part of the haplotree will get five to fifteen on a regular basis. So eventually, you will have a lot more genetic data per person to enjoy - but you will also get a ton more YSNPs that are not shared until some future date (or one of your branches becomes somewhat prolific).

Your mileage will vary is the point of this post. I have so many testers it is hard for me to keep up with and there is a lot of YSTR overlap due to statistical variation. You guys will be able to build a very robust YSNP haplotree eventually that will have minimal YSTR overlap. However, the progress to solve genealogical problems will be a challenge for your haplogroup with such a small sample size.

[Llanfihangel]

Hello Winmeek and RobertCasey.

Thanks for your information!

I have checked some of the Project Groups on FTDNA, and found several S27800 kits that aren't on the Big Y. They probably paid FTDNA to be tested directly for S27900 or the R1b-P312 SNP Pack, and they are far less expensive than the BigY.

FTDNA doesn't provide ready access to these alternatives.

It seems very likely that kits with DYS392=14, and DYS464 c,d=16,18 (or maybe 16,17) will be RS27900. Some families, such as Meek, Williams, Powell and Webb have 15-20 kits likely to test positive for S27900.

Those kits (like mine) that tested for RS27900 prior to BigY don't show up on the BigY matching name list. And since my BigY haplotype has now been "updated" by FTDNA to FGC39849 - a sub-clade of RS27900, it will probably mislead others looking for matches to S27900.

As I mentioned before, there seems to be a difference between the precision of the old BigY testing process and the new one.. The new one doesn't seem to go as far, or maybe the interpretation is different.

I am in contact with FTDNA and hope to get an informative answer to some of these issues.

The ancestral names are no longer exclusive Welsh, and there are now several DYS390 with the "English" 24 as opposed to the "Welsh" 23


  Llanfi

[winmeek]

Thanks everyone for the enlightening posts.

I would like to get snp test others in my Meek dna group.  We work mainly with FTDNA.  Is Big Y the only test that gives the variants or can I get this with the P312 snp pack or perhaps use some other companies test?

The discussion suggests there are more s27900 tests than I know of.  How can I find those tests and see their variants?
Thanks, Fred

[RobertCasey]

There are two other major players for NGS/WGS testing: Full Genomes Coporation (the first vendor to offer a NGS test around 18 months before FTDNA responded with their Big Y); YSEQ (the former FTDNA scientists for the first 15 years of FTDNA) who offers a Whole Genomes Sequencing test.

These tests are significantly better than Big Y but cost more as well. There are only two scenarios where I recommend these higher resolution tests. If you are now NGS testing in the genealogical time frame, the extra 30 % coverage of the Y chromosome is worth the extra 30 % cost. Also, if there have been four or five NGS tests for the same branch (it appears to be a bottleneck branch), the extra coverage makes sense in this scenario as well. I still prefer NGS tests over WGS tests. YSEQ only offers a lower end WGS test (the analysis of WGS is very different). Full Genomes has another new NGS test that covers 2X the Y chromosome than the Big Y - it is in beta test for the first few tests. This is only for those who are really into NGS testing as this test is currently $2,950. 2X coverage for 5X the cost. Over the next year or two, this test (or some other equivalent test will be under $1,000). This test reads all 111 FTDFNA YSTR markers which saves another $340, so it really only 3X the cost if you have not taken the YSTR to date. When the price comes down to $2,000, it would be 2X the cost for 2X the data (for first time YDNA testers).

The P312 SNP pack is very marginal for S27900. It does not include any the four downstream branches below S27900 or ZZ37_1 and ZZ38_1 which are above S27900. It appears to only include S27900 itself which would be $119 for just one YSNP. You would be better off testing some of these YSNPs individually at YSEQ for more functionality and less cost. These tests are $18 each plus $5 for shipping the collection kit. You should also use the FTDNA YSTR matches button to see what YSNPs that your closer matches are testing positive for.

[Llanfihangel]

Hi,
To test for S27900 -- it is an SNP; THIS WILL verify positive or negative for S27900 only!!!
Go to FTDNA
Click on Upgrade to find the "Order New Tests" page
Select the "Advanced Tests" panel and click "Buy Now"
This opens the "Select a Product" page
Select SNP from the drop-down menu
and find S27900
It will cost $39 US and can be added to your shopping cart.

I cannot endorse people doing this, I am not an employee or associate of FTDNA

People should consult with their Project Administrators as to the pros and cons of various FTDNA test options.

Please see the attached screen shots

 

[Llanfihangel]

Hi,

My FTDNA Big Y haplotype is now R-FCG39549.

There are 3 kits with R-FCG39549, 2 with R-FCG39555, 2 with R-BY36115, 1 with R-BY19604, and 5 with R-S27900 in the FTDNA  "RP312 and Subclades" Project- Group F2b. S27900+ (R1b-P312>ZZ37>ZZ38>Z29645>S27900)

So if you want to keep track of kits with R-S27900 and its subclades you might be well advised to join the "RP312 and Subclades Project" group. I take my hat off to the Project administrators for defining Group F2b so wisely!!

Cheers,

Llanfi

 

[Llanfihangel]

Hello Winmeek,

I see that you are part-way down the Big Tree Panel and that you may be "stuck" at R-A5305. Try looking at the downstream SNPs on the FTDNA BIgY Resukts page. FTDNA tells me that you have to set the "Derived" drop-down to "Show all" .

 FTDNA has me at R-FCG39549 but when I check for R-FCG39555 that is at the bottom of the Big Tree panel, I find what I think is a convincing positive, although FTDNA's return on the search shows "no (-) please see my chart, attached.

Big Tree has the following statement:
A red background is used for men whose data has not yet been fully analyzed. His position on the tree is not yet final, and will in general be downstream of the current position. He may not be positive for all the SNPs/INDELs in the block he descends from.

I think that the Big Y analysis stops as soon as a negative SNP result is found, and in my case they didn't go down to FGC39555.

I got "currently no results" for 22460816-C-T, ? for  BY11430, Yes (+) for FGC39563, ? for BY15471, "currently no results" for BY38545, ? for A540, and No (-) for FGC39555

Do you know if the Big Tree people do a separate interpretation (from FTDNA) of the uploaded CSV file?

I have contacted FTDNA on this but I haven't heard back

I would appreciate any comments and guidance on interpreting my FGC39555 chart and BigY in general.

Cheers,

Llanfi   

[winmeek]

Thanks for the information.  I am in the p312 and subclades group.  I tried to go look for s27900s but there are thousands of tests and no search feature.  Do you know how to get the tests of interest off that site?  How can I get your unnamed varients?
The Big Tree interpretation can be different from FTDNA.  I've been told the one guy at FTDNA that does this work is backlogged but will get to my test and interpret it.  I am just learning about how to interpret this.  Another interpretation of my results is shown in the attachment - this groups me with Eager Powell based on shared varients and differences from the other s27900s.  I plan to get another of the Meeks tested so it should all be sorted out eventually.

[winmeek]

What is your kit number?