Minnie Rosina Plumb

[Gherkin6]

This message is in response to a comment on another thread, I've started this new topic as I have a fair bit of information.
Janice Martin - can't find a link to my Plumbs yet, or to Balsham, but have come up with some interesting info.

Minnie Rosina Plumb was born 10th Jul 1882 in Islington, Middlesex. She was baptised 10th Sep 1882 at St Ann, Tottenham.  Minnie Rosina Plumb, parents Sarah Ann and William, labourer of 30 Templeton Rd (this address was uninhabited in the 1881 census)

I suspect she was named after Minnie Fitch who must have been a friend of mother Sarah Ann; she appeared on both of Sarah Ann’s marriages as a witness.

William Plumb married Sarah Ann Kidman 12 Feb 1882 at St Ann, Tottenham. The record reads: William Plumb 22, labourer of 88?, Templeton Rd, father Charles Plumb, carman. Sarah Ann Kidman 20, of 102 Templeton Rd, (same address as one of the witnesses Minnie Fitch had in 1881) father Thomas Kidman, labourer. Witnesses: John Triton?, Minnie Fitch. Minnie Fitch was also a witness at Emma Fitch’s marriage on the same day.

So, the first census that identifies Minnie is:

1891 census (an inaccurate census for this family) in Tottenham at 11 Osman Rd. William Plumb 43, general labourer born Linton (actually Islington, and age about 31), wife Sarah 44 born Islington (actually Linton, and age about 29), children MINNIE 14 (age should be about , Gertrude 12 (age should be about 7), Albert 9, Sarah Ann 7 (age should be about 4), William 2, lodger George Keidman (probably Kidman) age 28 (should be about 24), general labourer.

Next the 1901 census at 11 Osman Rd. No parents present. MINNIE Plumb 18, daily work, domestic, Gertrude 17, factory hand, confectionery, Albert 16, coal/cock horse lead? car, Sarah 15, factory hand, confectionery, Thomas 7, Emmie 3.
Children born after the 1891 census and were Jane 14th Jun 1891 – died 1899, Thomas Reuben born 18th Mar 1895, and Emma Elizabeth born 21 Dec 1897. These last 2 are in this 1901 census

Minnie’s father, William Plumb’s death is probably registered Oct-Dec 1899 in Holborn, London, age shown 48.

In 1901 his widow, Sarah Ann is in Linton, Cambridgeshire with her parents: at Bartlow Rd. Thomas Kidman 77, farm labourer, wife Susannah (nee Powel) 75, children Sarah Ann Plumb 40, widow, Emma Moore 35, married.

Sarah re-married: 3 Aug 1902 at St John, Vartry Road, Stamford Hill. The record reads: William James Williams 31, widower, fruiterer, father John Williams, carman. Sarah Plumb 40, widow, father Thomas Kidman, labourer. Both lived at 12 Osman Rd. Witnesses: Minnie Fitch, John Fitch. Sarah could not sign her name.
I believe Sarah died in 1945, death registered Edmonton, Middlesex. She appears in electoral registers at 18 Osman Rd, until at least 1938, other family members include son Albert Henry Plumb and her son by her second marriage William Ambrose Arthur Williams. Her second husband William James Williams probably died in 1934.

William Plumb was born about 1860 in Islington - not Balsham. I’m not sure where this comes from – I can’t find any link to Balsham yet with this family line. Neither was he born in Linton, there is no William Plum/b apearing in a census with birthplace Linton, but there was a Sarah Ann Kidman, so I guess the census taker got it wrong in 1891 like lots of other info shown for the family.

William first appears in 1861 census at Islington St Mary, Middlesex, at 3 Albion Place. Charles Plumb 25, carman born Cambridgeshire, wife Maria 25, born Cambridgeshire, children Reuben 7, Charles 5, Thomas 3, WILLIAM 1, all children born Islington.

Next in 1871 census in Islington at 2 Albion Place, Dorset Street. Charles Plumbe 37, carman, born Brinkley, wife “Anne M” 37, born Linton, children Reuben 16, carman, Charles 14, porter, WILLIAM 10, George 8, Mary 5, Anna M 1. All children born Islington.

Next in 1881 in Islington at 13 Albion Place. Charles Plumb 48, carman, born Brinkley, wife Admariah 47, born Linton, children, WILLIAM 21, builder's labourer, George 17, Henry 13, errand boy, Admirah 11, Charles 8, Elizabeth age 3. All children born Islington.

William’s father was Charles Plumb born about 1834 in Brinkley, Cambridgeshire,  his mother was Admira / Myra / Admiriah / Mirah / Maria (so many different forms of this name!) Fitch, baptised Admira Fitch 5th Apr 1834 in Linton, Cambridgeshire.
I believe Charles’s death is registered in 1915 in Islington, Admiriah’s death in 1902 in Islington.
They married on 5 Sep 1853 at St Philip, Bethnal Green, London. The record says:
Mirah Fitch 20, father Robert Fitch, labourer. Charles Plumb 20, carman, father John Plumb, labourer. Witnesses: Phoebe Fitch and Jeremiah unreadable, (f/s, vowel, ? s? ? er).
After the above censuses Charles and Myra/ Marie can be found in 1891 and 1901 in Islington, and Charles as a widower in 1911.

I believe Charles’s parents to be John Plum born about 1799 Brinkley, Cambridgeshire, died 1874 Brinkley and Rhoda Berry born about 1801 Bressingham, Norfolk, died 1872 Brinkley.
They married 25 Dec 1828 in Brinkley.
Charles can be found with them in the censuses for 1841 and 1851 in Brinkley.
They continued living in Brinkley until their deaths.
Rhoda Berry was baptised 29 Dec 1805 Bressingham, Norfolk, parents Samuel Berry and Elizabeth Fisher.
John was baptised 17th Mar 1899 Brinkley, parents Thomas Plum and Mary.

Hopes this helps with your tree,

Regards, Jenny

[Janice Martin]

Don't know if my facts are correct but I have William Plumb b 14 August 1859 ,Balsham, son of Charles Plumb b 6 April 1834  Balsham, and Sarah Ann Moore b 1836 West Wratting married 13 December 1856 West Starting. To confuse matters  Charles had a 2nd cousin, also  Charles Plumb b 19 october 1834 married Admira Fitch and their son Reuben b 1855, Islington had a daughter b 1879 named Minnie Rosina Plumb!! Our Minnie Rosina b 10 July 1882 married William Alfred Morley 25 December 1902 at St Matthias Church, Stoke Newington and she passed away 31 October 1951. John Edward Fitch was Admira Fitch's brother and his wife Minnie  was the witness at Sarah Ann Kidman's marriages. (They were related through the Casbolt family of Linton. Hope you can understand this Janice

[Gherkin6]

I am having difficulty understanding your line! Maybe some of the Minnie Plumbs are mixed up – easy to do; there are so many Minnie Plumbs and Minnie Morleys. I’d like to get it right.

I’d like to run through Minnie Rosina Plumb’s life to explain why I think that her mother was Sarah Ann Kidman birth registered 1862 Linton, Cambridgeshire and her father was William Plumb born about 1860 in Islington, London.
Looking at the documents as I read them – please correct me if I’ve mis-read them:
 
Minnie Rosina Plumb baptised on10 Sep 1882 at St Ann, Tottenham
Parents Sarah Ann and William, labourer of 30 Templeton Rd. Says: born July 10th 1882. Do you agree this is her baptism?

Marriage of William Plumb 22, labourer of 88, Templeton Rd, father Charles Plumb, carman. Sarah Ann Kidman 20, of 102 Templeton Rd, father Thomas Kidman, labourer. Witnesses: John Triton?, Minnie Fitch.
Do you agree that this marriage shows the same road name as the baptism for Minnie Rosina Plumb? And the witness is Minnie Fitch? The address leads me to believe they are Minnie Rosina Plumb’s parents. The road name is the same.

Birth registered Jul-Sep 1882; district Edmonton, Middlesex (which covered the Tottenham area of London)
Registered as Minnie Rosie E Plumb.

Now what I believe is a very inaccurate 1891 census in Tottenham at 11 Osman Rd. William Plumb 43, general labourer born Linton, wife Sarah 44 born Islington. children MINNIE 14, born Islington, Gertrude 12, Albert 9, Sarah Ann 7 William 2, lodger George Keidman age 28 general labourer, born Linton.
Do you agree that: (although the ages of most of them and the places of birth of Sarah and William are not what we think) the parents and siblings names match and George Keidman (which is probably Kidman) is living with them as a lodger?

The 1901 census at 11 Osman Rd, Tottenham, no parents present. Minnie Plumb 18, daily work, domestic, Gertrude 17, factory hand, confectionery, Albert 16, coal/cock horse lead? car, Sarah 15, factory hand, confectionery, Thomas 7, Emmie 3.
Do you agree that this Minnie Plumb is the same as in 1891 census at same address?

Marriage 25th Dec 1902 at St Matthias, Stoke Newington says:
Arthur Morley 23, fruiterer of 55 Spencer Rd, father William Morley deceased, french polisher. Minnie Plumb 22 of 25 Cowper Rd, father William Plumb deceased, labourer. Witnesses: James Forster, Maud Morley.
Do you agree that this is your Minnie Rosina Plumb?

Regards, Jenny

[Gherkin6]

Continuing with Minnie Rosina Plumb:

The 1911 census at 64 Woodlands Park Rd, Haringey. Arthur Morley 29, assistant greengrocer, wife Minnie 28, daughter Lillie 3, visitor Lizzie Howden 36, married.
Is this your Minnie Rosina Plumb with her husband?

Now, looking at her husband.
The 1891 census at 11 Matthias Rd, Islington. William Morley 43, french polisher, wife Hannah 39, children Lizzie 16, general servant, Philip 14, greengrocer's boy, ARTHUR 8, Maud 7, Lilian 4 and lodgers Mary A and Amy E Goldsmith. The head of the household’s occupation ties up with the husband Arthur in the marriage record of Minnie in 1902 shown in my previous message,
Is this your Arthur Morley? Note the brother Philip age 14.

Going back to Sarah Ann Kidman, who I think is Minnie’s mother.
The 1901 census at Linton, Cambridgeshire. At Bartlow Rd. Thomas Kidman 77, farm labourer, wife Susannah 75, children Sarah Ann Plumb 40, widow, Emma Moore 35, married.

Sarah Ann got re-married. 3 Aug 1902 at St John, Vartry Road, Stamford Hill. The record reads: William James Williams 31, widower, fruiterer, father John Williams, carman. Sarah Plumb 40, widow, father Thomas Kidman, labourer. Both lived at 12 Osman Rd. Witnesses: Minnie Fitch, John Fitch.

Now, there is a 1911 census for Sarah Ann Kidman. At 18 Osman Road. William James Williams 40, carman for fruiterer, wife Sarah Ann 49, born Linton, his children Henry 25, Rhubin 15, their son William 7, boarder Philip Morley 33, single, born Dalston.
I believe this is Arthur Morley’s brother Philip as shown in the 1891 census.

Looking at the 1891 census for William Plumb and Sarah as shown on the previous message, and the “lodger” George Kidman.
Marriage between George Albert Kidman and Elizabeth Ash on 1st Aug 1891 at St John’s Church, Vartry Road, Stamford Hill, shows: George Albert Kidman 23, labourer of 11 Osman Rd, father Thomas Kidman, labourer. Elizabeth Ash 22, father Henry Ash, labourer. Witnesses: W.PLUMB and Fanny Ash. Do you agree that the address for this George Albert Kidman is the same as in the 1891 census at Tottenham, and that his father’s name is the same as on the marriage of William Plumb and Sarah Ann Kidman? And that a witness is W Plumb?

Can you see why I think there are too many examples of Kidmans and Morleys and Plumbs and Fitches living in the same place for them NOT to be connected to each other.

Do you have other census entries for your Minnie Rosina Plumb?

Regards, Jenny