Making sense of Liverpool Catholic Baptism Records - Possible Typo?

[SByrne]

Hi everyone,
I've managed to get myself in a twist trying to make sense of some Catholic baptism records from St Albans in Liverpool and think I need a second opinion to help me make sense of things.

I'm researching a relative Mary Byrne, born in Liverpool around 1877 to Simon Byrne and Mary Wise. From family research and history we believe she married a man with the surname O'Neill and after he passed away, she remarried an Alexander Errity.

Now I believe I have found the St Augustine baptism record for Alexander which features an addendum for his marriage in which it states he married a Mary O'Neill (born Mary Byrne). When searching for some sign of Mary's birth, all I have found is a baptism record from St Augustine in Liverpool that also features an addendum stating that she married an Alexander Errity. The only problem is that this record is for a Mary BURNS (not Byrne), son of Simon Burns and Mary Wise.

Have I found her and the BURNS is just a typo? Or am I completely wrong? Would love to know what you think!

Thanks so much everyone!

[garstonite]

Hiya - go to
www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk
baptisms 1883 - 1901
burns
fathers name simon
mothers name mary
search
results = 2
John Burns 1887  at St Alban - father Simon Burns - mother Mary Wise
Joseph Simon 1891 at St Alban - father Simon Burns - mother Mary Wyre
obviously WYRE is a Mistranscription as well
I would say that the verger or whoever wrote the records down was not exactly perfect in his English Grammar - it is no coincidence that these 2 records are St Alban as well as the one you have posted .

just my opinion - but I would say your Mary Byrne and Mary Burns is the same lady - I will see if I can find a record of her marriage to O'Neill.....

http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk/liverpoolrcmarriages/marriages.php

1901 at St James - Bootle  Mary Byrne to James O'Neil  ( only one l )
on the records for baptisms or marriages you will see on the right hand side REQUEST FORM
YOU CAN GET ALL 3 RECORDS at £3 each from Liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk
good luck ....
you also have to take in to consideration that Simon Burns / Byrne if he had come over from Ireland may not have been able to spell his own name ...have you found Simon and Mary in Liverpool in the 1881 census ??

[garstonite]

This looks a good match for Simon / Mary / and Mary jnr in 1881 census - he is a Stevedore by occupation - more commonly known a Docker

Simon Byrne   Head   M   43   Ireland
Mary Byrne   Wife   F   41   Ireland
Lizzie Byrne   Daughter   F   17   Ireland
Peter Byrne   Son   M   12   England
Anastasia Byrne   Daughter   F   8   England
Mary Byrne   Daughter   F   4   England
Theresa Byrne   Daughter   F   9 M   England
........................................................................
ADDED -
you say Mary was born around 1877 - marries - her husband dies - and she re - marries a man named Alexander Errity ...I have only just seen the year of marriage to Alexander = 1914 - so she was with James O'Neill 13 years - do you know if she had any children to James ? she had 2 with  Alexander ?

[garstonite]

Maiden Name of Mother   For Full Details of this Baptism
1893-2070   ST AUGUSTINE   282-AUG-1-8 (126)   1893   1893   ALEXANDER   ERRITY   father MICHAEL   mother   MARY ANN   McMANUS   
1896-2188   ST ALBAN   282-ALB-1-6 (750)   1896   1896   FRANCIS PATRICK   ERRITY    father MICHAEL       mother MARY ANN   McMANUS   
1899-2140   ST ALBAN   282-ALB-1-7 (133)   1899   1899   MICHAEL   ERRITY    father
MICHAEL   mother    MARY ANN   McMANUS   

I wonder why this record states Alexander was baptised 1893 ?.. maybe he was a year old ?

[SByrne]

Thanks so much for such a great reply. Yep, I was working backwards from the 1881 Census with a little help from family stories (her brother Peter is my Great Grandfather). Thanks for the Liverpool History Projects site, I wasn't previously aware of it and looks like a great resource for me.

I believe you are quite right about the spellings. I have found numerous St Albans records for BURNS that seem to match up with BYRNE family members, including John, Mary and Joseph Simon. Perhaps even another Simon Byrne (1876-1877) if you see the attached photo.

you say Mary was born around 1877 - marries - her husband dies - and she re - marries a man named Alexander Errity ...I have only just seen the year of marriage to Alexander = 1914 - so she was with James O'Neill 13 years - do you know if she had any children to James ? she had 2 with  Alexander ?

I believe Mary had at least three children with James O'Neil (possibly more) and then 2 with Alexander Errity. I believe James O Neil passed away before her second marriage although I'm yet to find the records for this.

Thanks again for all the enormously helpful input!

[garstonite]

You are more than welcome - I live in Liverpool so was aware of Liverpool Baptisms for Roman Catholic families - sadly the baptisms are only from 1883 to 1901 - hopefully they will get earlier baptisms on line soon ..Alexander and Mary married jan / feb/mar in 1914 , so it wasn't because James died in WW1 ?
good luck with your research
if you get any non catholic research families in Liverpool try searching on
www.lan-opc.org.uk/Search/indexp.html
 

[lancaster.jim]

Following on from what Garstonite has written, there are several underlying reasons for surname variations. 

If a person cannot read or write, their name is what they SAY it is and the scribe has to record it as best he can.  The scribe may read back what he has written and the person will agree.  This oral transmission can give rise to even greater problems if the person giving the name has a strong accent.

The current practice of having a ‘celebration’ after a baptism is quite new – within the last 30 years.   At the time in question, the late 1800s, it is likely that the infant was taken to church by its godparents and the parents would not attend, and there would be no party afterwards.  Thus it would the the godparents who would tell the priest the names of the child.  The Catholic community in Liverpool at that time was mainly Irish but from all over Ireland, so there would be many different accents.  This would increase the possible number of spelling of any one name.  You will be familiar with the variants of your own name.

My local church registers include a marriage

6 Jun 1868, Patricium KEALY, [of] Jericho, [son of] Petri KEALY
[married]  Catharinam BUTLER, [of the same place], [daughter of] Gulielmi BUTLER

and I think the baptisms of the family are -

Born; Baptised; Child; Father; Mother
3 Mar 1869; 14 Mar 1869; Petrus CALEY; Patricii CALEY; Catharinae BUTLER
3 Jun 1871; 2 Jul 1871; Maria KEIGHLEY; Patricii KEIGHLEY; Catharinae BUTLER
19 Jun 1874; 28 Jun 1874; Gulielmus KAILLY; Patricii KAILLY; Catharinae BUTLER
13 Jul 1876; 23 Jul 1876; Joannes KELLY; Patricii KELLY; Catharinae BUTLER
18 Sep 1878; 6 Oct 1878; Ricardus KELLY; Patricii KELLY; Catharinae BUTLER
11 Jan 1881; 30 Jan 1881; Joseph KELLY; Patrick KELLY; Catharine BUTLER
13 Apr 1885; 26 Apr 1885; Thomas KELLY; Patricii KELLY; Catharinae BUTLER

All these baptisms were recorded by the same Irish priest, except the one in English which was recorded by a Belgian priest.  I suspect that the details of the children were provided by a different set of godparents for each child .

The baptism register for another parish has four children that I think are the same family with surnames written as –  Aughtigan; Aughtigan; Octagan; Octigan.  If you read these aloud and listen, I think you will hear much the same sound for each.

Your decision about the records being the same person will be a personal one based on the total evidence you can collect.

[Blue70]

The priest would write down what he thought he heard or the version of the surname that he preferred so you would have different spellings of surnames and some were quite odd versions of the original surname. When searching on Ancestry I use * instead of letters to catch the different versions of names.

The Liverpool History Projects database is useful as a free guide but now that Ancestry has a Liverpool RC record image collection I would have thought that people no longer buy records from the site. I don't know if it still provides a record service has anyone used it recently?


Blue

[SByrne]

Thanks Blue and lancaster.jim, that's very interesting and definitely helps explain a lot of things. BURN/BYRNE/BURNES seems like an easy mistake to make when you take everything into consideration.

Searching for the names I had from family/census records, it seemed like people had simply vanished, but the misspelled names opens a new avenue. I'll have to try and get hold of more records for those misspelled names that seem to fit and see what matches what I already know!

Thanks again!