Author Topic: Todd, London  (Read 1579 times)

Offline AlanWatson

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Todd, London
« on: Saturday 09 April 16 06:31 BST (UK) »
Hi,

My ancestor Thomas Todd (1801, Chelsea Ė 1876, Greenwich) is well documented. In 1822 he married Mary Ann Coombe (1803-1834) and in 1839 Sarah Adams (1818-1890). They had a total of 11 children. He and his family are in the censuses from 1841 onwards; his marriage and burial records and the christening records for the children are clear.

There are lots of trees on FamilySearch, Ancestry etc giving his parents as George Todd (1760-1825) and Mary Strover (1770-1812) and their parents as Henry Todd (1726 -?) and Frances Williams (1726-?) and Thomas Strover (1739-1782) and Ellin Cresswell (?-?)

Numerous other members of these families are shown with precise dates for christenings, marriages etc, but I canít find any objective records for Thomasí christening or for who his parents were, and little on his grandparents, their families, dates etc.

An entry attached to Thomas Todd (Family Search person LXSN-GXS) gives a source as ĎFamily Tree compiled in 1965/6 by George William Todd Ö Migrated from user-supplied source citation: urn:familysearch:source:2018440510í. (George William Todd Junior was Thomas Toddís grandson.) I have mailed the person who made this post but have not yet had a reply, and I canít tell how much of the tree now on FamilySearch is consistent with the tree that GW Todd compiled, or indeed how reliable it was in the first place. His tree does not come up in my searches for community contributed IGI entries.

I can find a few scraps of information which partly support and partly contradict earlier bits of the tree. Thomasís father may have been the George Todd, son of Henry Todd linen draper, St Martin in the Fields, who was apprenticed to the Glazierís company in 1774. In that case Thomasís brother William Todd was admitted to the Glazierís company by patronage in 1825.

But I can also find a child Griffith Henry Todd (the name Griffith appears repeatedly in this family) christened in 1773 in St Martins in the Fields to father Henry and mother Mary. It seems very likely that this Griffith Henry was the son of Henry the linen draper, although he is not in the FamilySearch tree for that family. If so the linen draper either married twice or Frances Williams (shown as his wife with GW Toddís tree as a source) was wrong. I can't find either marriage.

I have looked in vain for more christening, marriage, burial, apprenticeship or trade records or wills either to support the family as it is or to correct it, and would be very grateful for help from Rootschatters more capable than me.

Thanks in advance,


Alan Watson

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Offline ciderdrinker

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Re: Todd, London
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 09 April 16 13:36 BST (UK) »
Hello
Let's start with that second marriage in 1839 which you already have.
It clearly states Thomas is a widower cowkeeper Greenwich son of George Todd stockbroker.

The baptism i think is him is at St George Hannover Square 12.2.1801
Thomas Todd s of George and Mary Todd born January 10th. No other details.
The couple seem to have other children in the area
Mary 31.7.1791 St Marylebone
Isabella 11.8.1793  "
Ann 8.2.1795 "
William 4.9.1796 St Pancras
Mary 28.2.1798 "
Richard 20.3.1804 St George Hannover
Jane 15.2.1805 Chelsea.
George 7.5.1809 Clerkenwell St James

None give any more details.
london Lives website gives a poll book which looks like George.
George Todd exchange broker St George Hannover Square Grosvenor Row 1802 voted for Gardener.
So it does look like that baptism for Thomas at Hannover square is right.

The same year there is a George Todd linen draper in the strand who voted for Gardner and Fox but i really don't think he is the same man.
There's a possible burial for George at Hannover Square 10.9.1815 of St Martins age 39 so born 1776.

Will see what else I can find

Ciderdrinker

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Offline AlanWatson

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Re: Todd, London
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 09 April 16 13:41 BST (UK) »
Many thanks. I'd obviously forgotten about the marriage record. As you say, the stockbroker and linen draper can hardly be the same person.

Thanks again,

Alan

Offline ShaunJ

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Re: Todd, London
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 09 April 16 13:43 BST (UK) »
Looks like the same George Todd mentioned on another thread in connection with a son Griffith: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=513226.0
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Offline AlanWatson

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Re: Todd, London
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 09 April 16 15:34 BST (UK) »
Thanks to Shaun too. I think the entries in that post confuse a few Griffith Todds (there were lots of them),but it adds a couple of interesting snippets.

I had found the will of Thomas Strover of Rochester, but was puzzled that it mentioned his wife Elizabeth where the birth records were for Ellin. If the tree as people have it is right, then presumable Ellin died and Thomas re-married. It would be nice to see a death record to support this or something showing that Thomas who married Elizabeth was a widower.

On CiderDrinker's earlier post, the confirmation that George was a stockbroker in Hannover Square looks good, but I am concerned at all the moving about: Marylebone, St Pancras (very close), Hanover Square, Chelsea, Clerkenwell and then burial at Hanover Square from St Martins in the Fields. And Thomas, born in Chelsea according to his census records, was christened in Hanover Square.

I also wonder whether the linen draper and the stockbroker were related in some way; as you say the linen draper was in The Strand (St Martins). He and wife Mary seem to have had a son Griffith Henry Todd and possibly others. As is clear from the other thread, Griffith is the signature Christian name for this family.

Thanks again for your help.


Alan

Offline AlanWatson

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Re: Todd, London
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 10 April 16 12:22 BST (UK) »
Hi again,

Your list of the couple's births:

Mary 31.7.1791 St Marylebone
Isabella 11.8.1793  "
Ann 8.2.1795 "
William 4.9.1796 St Pancras
Mary 28.2.1798 "
Thomas 12.2.1801 St George Hannover Square
Richard 20.3.1804 ""
Jane 15.2.1805 Chelsea.
George 7.5.1809 Clerkenwell St James

compares with what I see in the various trees (with dates of christenings):

Frances 21.4.1793 St Mary Le Strand (parents George & Mary image Findmypast) (died next year)
Henry 2.2 1795 ditto ditto Married Hannah Stickney, Banns St James Westminster (image Ancestry, no parents mentioned, might well be wrong person) 'drowned in maelstrom' (no date or source)
William 4.9.1796 St Pancras Old Church (Parents George & Mary, image on Ancestry) Married Susannah Stock Clerkenwell 1817 witness Mary Todd (son George schoolmaster, daughter Mary Emily m Joseph Bishop)
Mary Todd 28.2.1789 (ditto, ditto) died unm 1877 admin George Todd schoolmaster neph & Joseph Bishop
Griffith Todd (from other post) 1.5.1799 St George Hanover Square (George & Mary, FindMyPast) m 1822 Mary Parker (same church as Thomas' first marriage, same page of register, witness G Todd) then m 1863 Maria Stebbings (with whom he already had three children) him widower accountant, son 
George Todd Stockbroker
Thomas Todd 12.2.1801 ditto, ditto, ditto marriages you already know about
Richard Todd 20.4.1804 ditto, ditto, ditto m 1827 Louise Parker, same church as Griffith & Thomas, witnesses Griffith & Mary Todd.

It is quite plain from this that Griffith, Thomas and Richard were brothers and sons of George the stockbroker, and that William and Mary were brother and sister (but not necessarily siblings of Griffith, Thomas and Richard). It also seems to me quite likely that Frances & Henry might have been children of George the linen draper, who lived in the Strand.

Then there are the children on your list, most of whom are not in the trees I have. Overall, it looks likely to me that two or more families have been mixed up, but, because of the recurrence of names and in particular the name Griffith Todd, that the two families were probably closely related.

I think I need to do more digging and see if I can identify family links to the other children that you mention, see how the linen draper/glazier family tree fits together and whether they were the same as the Henry/Mary who had a child Griffith Henry Todd (christened St Martins in the fields).

Any more insights would be very welcome.

Thanks again for your help.


Alan



Offline Lily M

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Re: Todd, London
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 10 April 16 16:39 BST (UK) »
I haven't connected these to your family, but there was a George Tod (sic) marrying Mary Pepper

April 1789  St.George Hanover Square

Witnesses  John Pepper and George Anderson

Offline Lily M

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Re: Todd, London
« Reply #7 on: Sunday 10 April 16 19:24 BST (UK) »
I'd ignored the George Todd and Mary Strover marriage  1891, as Southwark didn't seem to fit.

Now I see a John Strover was taken to court by Griffith Todd in 1839.  Then John Trover died in 1840, and names Griffith Todd in his Will!  Hmm .. maybe I've read that wrong.

Offline AlanWatson

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Re: Todd, London
« Reply #8 on: Monday 11 April 16 01:50 BST (UK) »
Great to see you on the case Lilly.

As far as the marriages go, I have
G & Mary Brown 19 July 1764 St George Hanover Squ (her from St George in the East)
G & Mary Birch 20 May 1777 St Anne Soho
G & Mary Pepper 23 April 1789 St George Hanover Squ
and in Pallots G & Mary Strover 1791 Southwark (not Blackfriars as mentioned in the trees)

I have John Strover (1746-1840) as the son of Thomas Strover and Mary Sales, brother of Thomas Strover (1739-1832) who may have married first Ellin Cresswell and had Mary Strover and then Elizabeth Searle mentioned in his will. John Strover's burial record really does show him as 95 years old. He may (according to ancestry trees) have married in 1766, Stood  Elizabeth Akers (1742-1824) and had several children and in 1825, Camberwell Catherine Askew.

How clever to have looked at his will. I don't think that he leaves a legacy to Griffith Todd. Instead he leaves to his wife absolutely all his assets including the securities held by the Bank of England jointly in his name and that of Griffith Todd. Not sure about the legality of that. It would be interesting to see the Bank of England ledger entry relating to this, which are usually on FindMyPast, but I can't find this one. No doubt the securities were either the subject of or the result of the court case. Oddly, the will doesn't mention children or grandchildren.

I plainly need to check the Strover family tree more carefully, as well as trying to match children, occupations, addresses, apprenticeships etc to the various Todd marriages.

I will be busy on other things for much of today and tomorrow, but will keep digging and let you know what I find.

Thanks again for the insights.

Alan