Author Topic: Todd, London  (Read 1581 times)

Offline Lily M

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Re: Todd, London
« Reply #9 on: Monday 11 April 16 08:50 BST (UK) »
To answer a couple of queries you had on Thomas Strover's marriages

Taken from City Ark Medway

St.Nicholas, Rochester

20/02/1769  Thomas Strover mar. Ellin Cresswell
Both single and of this parish
Witnesses  Edward Fry and John Strover

01/09/1772   Mrs. Ellin Strover was buried

12/01/1773   Thomas Strover (widower) mar. Mary McGown (spinster)
(Same signature)

04/05/1777   Thomas Strover of this parish a Widower mar. Elizabeth Searle of the parish of Rainham a spinster
Witnesss  Thomas M?  and William Turner


I didn't look for a burial for 2nd wife.

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Offline AlanWatson

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Re: Todd, London
« Reply #10 on: Monday 11 April 16 13:13 BST (UK) »
Thanks to Lilly for more very helpful information. That really supports the idea that the will of Thomas husband of Elizabeth was really the father of Mary Strover whose mother was Ellin Cresswell.

A close reading of Thomas' will proved 12 August 1792 adds to this. It makes provision for his wife Elizabeth for her lifetime or until her remarriage and for children Mary and Thomas. It also appoints brother-in-law William Cresswell (of ??? Middlesex?) as executor.

So one of Thomas's sisters may have married his wife's brother (I haven't found the sister's name or the details of their marriage yet), and Thomas may have provided for the blood relative to ensure provision for his children if their step-mother were to re-marry, which she did.

This may also explain why Mary Strover married George Todd in Christ Church Blackfriars Rd Southwark in 1791; her mother died when she was two (giving birth to brother Thomas); her father died when she was 12, and her second step-mother re-married 18 months later. She may have moved to live with uncle John (who later sued Griffith Todd) and who seems to have moved there some time between the birth of son John Akers Strover in Strood in 1772 and the death of wife/mother Elizabeth Strover nee Akers in 1824.

I haven't yet looked for more evidence of his residence at different dates.

It would obviously be really good to find out why annuities ended up being registered in the joint names of Griffith Todd and John Strover; I will find out how much it would cost to get the details of the court case from the National Archives. It would also be good to find the second Strover Cresswell marriage and see what happened to Mary's brother Thomas.



Alan

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Offline Lily M

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Re: Todd, London
« Reply #11 on: Monday 11 April 16 16:59 BST (UK) »
Just to add to the speculation.... I wonder if Joseph knew the Todd family

This is step-mother's 2nd marriage.

24/04/1784  St.Nicholas, Rochester
Elizabeth Strover of this parish  widow married
Joseph Poynton of St.Martins-in-the-Fields, Middlesex  widower

Witnesses Mary Strover and William Turner (a clerk - I think)

Offline Lily M

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Re: Todd, London
« Reply #12 on: Tuesday 12 April 16 11:14 BST (UK) »
Looking at the Australian Dictionary of Biography for Sir Charles Todd, leads me to think that William really was the brother of Thomas, Richard and Griffith.

Charles Todd + 3 other siblings were baptised 28th April 1835 parents Griffith and Mary
Also on 28th April 1835, same place, were 4 children with parents William and Susannah

The biography claims that Charles' father was a grocer, which ties in with:

Haberdasher's Apprentices   March 1813

Griffith Todd son of George Todd of No.10 Owens Place, Goswell Street Road - a Broker
bound to Robert Thompson of High Holborn - a grocer
£105 paid by the father

Offline AlanWatson

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Re: Todd, London
« Reply #13 on: Tuesday 12 April 16 16:09 BST (UK) »
Hi Lilly,

I had missed the apprenticeship record and the baptisms. Unfortunately, even having found the baptisms on FamilySearch, I can't find the originals on Ancestry, which is supposed to have all the non-conformist records. The children mentioned are all those born to the two families by that date, all of whom had been baptised before. The family all became members of the Catholic Apostolic Church, which was founded about then, so it is possible that they went through a second christening for that reason, but I can't see a Catholic Apostolic Church in Cripplegate, and Henry David Todd (born to Griffith and Mary in 1836) was still Christened in the CoE church in Greenwich.

I find the description of Griffith Todd's occupation in the Australian biography a little odd; you have shown that he was apprenticed to be a haberdasher, but he describes himself as 'accountant' on his census returns and in the register for his second marriage, in which he also describes his father as a broker. By contrast, his brother Thomas, my direct ancestor, initially described himself as 'stock jobber' (following his father), then 'cow keeper' and his family really did become grocers, milk suppliers, tea suppliers and later publicans. Griffith was only in Greenwich in the 1841 census but Thomas and his family were there throughout.

Incidentally, I found a few more births/baptisms to George Todd & Mary. My consolidated list is now:

Elizabeth 25.6.1766 Bethnal Green
Elizabeth 27.9.1778 St Sepulchre Holborn
Mary 31.7.1791 St Marylebone
Frances 21.4.1793 St Mary Le Strand
Isabella 11.8.1793 St Marylebone
Henry 2.2 1795 St Mary Le Strand
Ann 8.2.1795 St Marylebone
William 4.9.1796 St Pancras
Mary 28.2.1798 St Pancras
Elizabeth 4.8.1799 Chelsea
Griffith 1.5.1799 St George Hanover Square
Thomas 12.2.1801 St George Hanover Square
Richard 20.3.1804 St George Hanover Square
Jane 15.2.1805 Chelsea.
Joseph 9.6.1805 St Mary Newington
George Michael 4.12.1808 St Mary Whitechapel (Mother Mary Ann)
George 7.5.1809 Clerkenwell St James
John 2.8.1812 St Mary Whitechapel
John Hodgson 25.12.1813 Shadwell (Mother Mary Ann)

We already know that Griffith, Thomas and Richard from Hanover Sq were brothers. We also have strong evidence that William and Mary were brother and sister, and Lilly now has evidence that they were siblings of the first three. The other two in the FamilySearch tree are Frances who died age 1 and Henry who was drowned in an undated maelstrom (Frances, according to the tree being the name of George's mother.) This fits in with the marriage in 1791, but the location is suspiciously similar to that of George the linen draper.

I haven't found any way of matching the other births/christenings up to the other marriages that we had found.

May have more time in the next couple of days.

Thanks again for your help.


Alan

Offline AlanWatson

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Re: Todd, London
« Reply #14 on: Wednesday 13 April 16 08:51 BST (UK) »
Hi again,

Thanks to everyone's good work, I am feeling increasingly happy about the family of George Todd and Mary Strover.

It would still be good to find details of Ellin Cresswell's birth. We know that she was 'a spinster of this parish' when she married in Rochester in 1769, and from her husband's will that she had a brother William. I can see the family of John and Elinor Cresswell with children William, John, Mary and John Christened in St Nicholas Rochester from 1731-1735, but no Ellin.

At the risk of changing the subject, I also can't find anything on George Todd's birth and parentage.   Quoting the same IGI legacy source, FamilySearch has him born in 1760 to parents Henry Todd & Frances Williams. Her father is given as John Williams who is said to have died in 1733. I can't find anything to support this.

Others on Ancestry have given George a brother Griffith Henry Todd, clearly because of the family name. Griffith Henry was baptised in St Martin in the Fields to parents Henry Todd and Mary on 28 Feb 1773, married Sarah Williams in the same church in 1801 and at had least three children including Griffith Henry junior 1804-1867.

I can't get much further than this.


Alan

Offline AlanWatson

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Re: Todd, London
« Reply #15 on: Thursday 02 June 16 05:47 BST (UK) »
Hi everyone,

Sorry for the extremely long gap between posts. Since last posting here, I have been lucky enough to have been contacted by Jacquie Bly who added the original source on IGI/Familysearch referring to the tree compiled by George William Todd.

Jacquie explained that George William constructed the tree from a box of papers he found in the attic and that she copied large parts of it from him. He died without children in 1996, and Jacquie does not know what happened to the original tree or the sources. Even so, she very kindly sent me hard copies of what she has.

As noted in my original post, this gives the parents of Thomas Todd as George Todd and Mary Strover. It also has George's parents as Henry Todd and Frances Williams.

A large part of the tree shows the descent of Frances Williams from John of Gaunt. The crucial part of this is the last two generations. Frances' father is given as John Williams, grocer in London d 1733 and his father as Roger Williams, merchant tailor of London d 1705. Unfortunately, I can't find any trace of either of them (or of Frances). Roger's father is well documented, Sir Griffith Williams bart d 1663. You can see him in Wikipedia here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Griffith_Williams,_1st_Baronet  and in Cockaines'  ‘The complete baronetage’ here https://archive.org/stream/cu31924092524390#page/n25/mode/2up and here https://archive.org/stream/cu31924092524390#page/n231/mode/2up.

The circumstantial evidence in favour of this is the frequent occurrence of the name Griffith in the family.

The tree does not have parents for Henry Todd and the parents it has for Mary Strover are different from those that I originally mentioned, and which everyone helped investigate.  George William had them as John Strover of Rochester and Anna Searles, who inherited the manor of West Court, Gillingham. George William gives three generations of Anna's ancestry, which can also be found here here http://www.british-history.ac.uk/survey-kent/vol4/pp226-249.

I think that George and Anna married at Gillingham on 13 July 1748, which to my mind makes them a little old to have been the parents of Mary Strover whom he, like us, has born in Rochester in 1770. I am inclined to think that we had the right parents before, although it is very likely that the various families were related; I have Mary's parents as John Strover and Ellin Cresswell, her step mother as  Elizabeth Searle and her paternal grandparents as Thomas Strover and Mary Sales.

George William also gives George Todd the stockbroker two full brothers, John who is said to have emigrated to the US and of whom no more is known, and Griffith Henry. I differ with the tree on the details of Griffith Henry's family and also on his parentage. His is the only record I can find for this generation: he was christened at St Martins in the Fields on 28 Feb 1773, parents Henry Todd and Mary, not Frances.

Jacquie usefully pointed out that George Todd's son Willliam was also a stockbroker (will proved 18 May 1833) and provided lots of invaluable detail on the later generations of the family.

Meanwhile, I have ordered a scan of the Bills in Chancery for Strover vs Todd and spent ages tracking down the original images of the 'baptisms' on 28th April 1835 that Lilly found, only to discover that I had them attached to my tree all along; they were not baptisms, but rather birth registrations at Dr Williams' library. Even so, the fact that the births were registered on the same day supports the link between the two sets of parents. I have also tried and failed to find a birth or christening for Ellin Cresswell or anything other than a possible christening in Rochester for her brother William Cresswell appointed executor of Thomas Strover's will.

Naturally, I will let you know when I get the Strover vs Todd stuff from the National Archives. If anyone can help with any of the rest, I would be delighted.

Thanks in advance,

Alan

Offline AlanWatson

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Re: Todd, London
« Reply #16 on: Thursday 16 June 16 05:00 BST (UK) »
Hi everyone,

I have just received the eleven very large pages of the depositions in Strover vs Todd from the national archives.

John Strover of Penton Place, Southwark and his wife Catherine petition the Lord Chancellor against Griffith Todd grocer of Greenwich in Kent, and Griffith Todd responds. The complaint is dated 22 November 1838, and is related to events following the death of John Akers Strover, the complainant’s son, in April 1837.

John Strover states that, although he is ‘distantly related’ to Griffith Todd; he was not closely acquainted with him before these events, but that Griffith Todd was intimately acquainted with his son, John Akers Strover. John Akers died intestate, a widower with no living children, but in possession of a large quantity of securities at the Bank of England. The complainants allege that Griffith Todd offered to help settle John Akers Todd’s affairs, but in fact tricked the complainants into transferring the securities into the two names jointly (Todd and Strover), giving him an unjustified claim over them. John Strover had letters of administration from the ecclesiastical  and sought the Lord Chancellor’s judgement giving him sole claim over the securities.

In an answer dated 1839, Griffith Todd agrees that John Akers Strover died intestate in 1837, and that his father John Strover as next of kin and only close relative got letters of administration for the estate. He further states that John Strover was his great uncle, not a distant relative. Griffith Todd’s mother, having been left an orphan at an early age, was brought up by the complainant John Strover and stayed with him until her marriage. Even after her marriage John Strover behaved with great kindness towards her and her children and particularly towards himself, Griffith Todd, who was often invited to visit. He goes on to say that Catherine Strover, John Strover’s current wife was only 26 at the time of her marriage to John Strover [then 78], that she gained an undue influence over him and that they married four months after the death of John Stover’s first wife after an acquaintance of less than one month. John Akers Strover was much displeased by the second marriage. Griffith Todd and John Akers Strover continued to have a close acquaintance after the marriage; John Akers Strover continually expressed a desire to leave part of his property to Griffith Todd and his sister, an intention he believed to have been frustrated only by John Akers Todd’s sudden death. When John Akers Todd died, his housekeeper, rather than informing her master’s friends and relatives, called in her own professional adviser who set about making considerable claims on her behalf against the deceased’s estate. A further complication arose because John Akers Todd had been separated from his wife for many years, and it was uncertain whether she was still living. In these circumstances, John Strover asked for Griffith Todd's help in resolving the estate’s affairs. Rather than initially agreeing, Griffith Todd found a professional adviser for them. It was only at the insistence of the complainant Catherine Strover that Griffith Todd devoted considerable time and trouble in carrying out much of the work himself, neglecting his business as a grocer. In recognition of his hard work and kindness, John and Catherine Strover frequently suggested in the presence of witnesses that all the deceased’s stock be put into a single account in their joint names, which was eventually organised. He disputes the claims against him and seeks a ruling against the claimant and the recovery of his own legal costs.

The facts as set out by Griffith Todd seem to me to confirm the tree for the Todd/Strover family as we had collectively worked it out, even down to the guess (from her marriage in Southwark) that Mary Strover had lived with her uncle John after she was orphaned. One other small point of interest is that Griffith is described and describes himself as a grocer. This is consistent with the biography of his famous son Sir Charles Todd FRS. The censuses give his brother and their family as the grocers; Griffith is consistently stated on census, marriage and christening records to be an accountant, which would have made him useful in settling a complex estate. Certainly both lived in Greenwich at this time so perhaps they effectively ran the grocery business together.

Hope you find this interesting. Please let me know if you want any more detail from the original papers, and thanks again to everyone for your help.


Alan Watson

Offline AlanWatson

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Re: Todd, London
« Reply #17 on: Tuesday 20 February 18 04:14 GMT (UK) »
Hi,

Although this thread has long since closed, it might be useful for anyone searching it for information on the family to record that FindmyPast now has an extensive set of Westminster Parish records, which include:

Henry Todd bachelor of St Clement Danes married Mary Tong spinster in St Mary le Strand by licence on 31 October 1756 (no details on ages or parents but witnesses two William Tongs; I haven’t found the licence)
Henry Todd christened St Clement Danes 23 October 1757 parents Henry and Mary
William Todd christened St Clement Danes 14 December 1758 parents Henry and Mary
George Todd (probably my ancestor) christened St Clement Danes 15 June 1760 parents Henry and Mary
Mary Todd christened St Clement Danes 31 August 1758 parents Henry and Mary
Thomas Todd christened St Clement Danes 31 October 1762 parents Henry and Mary also buried there 20 August 1763
Henry Frederick Todd christened St Clement Danes 22 April 1764 parents Henry and Mary also buried there 31 August 1765
Thomas Todd christened St Clement Danes 30 June 1765 parents Henry and Mary
Ann Todd christened St Clement Danes 30 November 1766 parents Henry and Mary
Griffith William Todd (child) buried St Clement Danes 12 June 1769
Griffith Henry Todd christened St Martin in the Fields 28 Feb 1773 parents Henry and Mary (subsequently married St George Hanover Squ where he was ‘of this parish’)
Frances Todd christened St George Hanover Squ 28 April 1776 parents Henry and Mary

Frances and Griffith Henry may or may not be part of the same family, but the others look very convincing:

•   I can find no other marriages of Henry Todds to Marys at an appropriate time
•   The christenings come in a good sequence starting a year after the marriage
•   All (except the last two) of the christenings were in the same church
•   This church was the recorded as Henry's church in the marriage register (and the two are next door)
•   My ancestor George Todd appears in the year expected
•   The name Griffith (which comes up in lots of subsequent generations) appears twice in the list.


Alan Watson