Parish registers lookup please Mcgregor/McGrigor and Clark

[John Andrew Hutchison]

Hi Marybeth,

It is possible they used another name, but as she had a child in 1776 and one in 1798, it's unlikely there would be many missing baptisms before 1776 due to her age.

Mac is Gaelic for son of, nighean daughter of, mac-mic grandson of, and nighean-mhic granddaughter of. Mac can be abbreviated to mc, mk, or m'; nighean to nic, nik, or n'; grandchild to vic, vik, vc, vk, or v'. Neyn is a poor spelling of nighean. Gaelic never had a written form, except for ogham inscriptions, so it borrowed the Latin, and then the English alphabet. Which means spellings were based on fitting the sounds to the foreign letters, and consequently they varied. Today mac is the only term used, although nic is still used in parts of Ireland. A traditional Gaelic name used to be name mac[father] vic[grandfather] and then something like ņige (the younger), or bąn (the fair-haired).

I've looked at the Alexander/Jean family before, the names of their children appear to follow the tradition, which would make his parents John and Mary, but I can't find a family like this in Rannoch. The best fits are;

1749 Donald/Janet son Learan Fortingall
1749 Donald/Janet Alexander Killichonan Fortingall
1760 Donald/Janet Janet Ardlarich Fortingall
1761 Donald/ Janet Cameron Rachel Killichonan Fortingall

1748 John [Killichonan] + Christian [Liaran] Fortingall
1750  John/Christian Donald Liaran Fortingall
1751 John/Christian ... Alex in Rannoch Fortingall
1753 John /Christian Christian Aulich Fortingall
1754 John/Christian Margt Balnoe Fortingall

1754 John + Ann [in Learan] Fortingall
1755 John/Ann Duncan Newtown Fortingall
1759 John/Ann Alexander Liaran Fortingall
1761 John/Ann Ann? ...on Fortingall
1765 John/Ann Elizabeth Bailnoe of Learan Fortingall
1767 John/Ann Margt Bailno of Learan Fortingall
1769 John/Ann Christian Bailnoe Fortingall

And if he wasn't from Rannoch, but from the Balquhidder-Killin area, then the best fits are;

1738 John + Mary [Balquidder/Callendar]
1741 John + Mary [Balquhidder/Buchanan]
1742 John/Mary male child Kirkton Balquhidder
1743 ?John Murray/Mary Dugall Kirkton Of Balquhidder
1744 John Murray McGregor/Mary Alexander?? [cf 1745] Balquhidder
1746 John Murray McGregor/Mary Alexander head of Lochearn Balquhidder
1747 John Murray McGregor/.. McGregor child wright Lochearnhead Balquhidder
1749 John Murray McGregor/Mary Donald head of Lochearn Balquhidder
1753 John Murray McGregor/Mary Duncan Head of Lochearn Balquhidder
1756 John Murray McGregor/McGregor James + John head of Lochearn Balquhidder

1741 John + Mary [Balquhidder parish/Buchanan parish]
1742 John/...McGregor Janet Raynacraig Balquhidder
1743 John Buchanan/Mary Elizabeth Ruinacraig Balquhidder
1748 John Buchanan/Mary John Rhinacraig Balquhidder
1749 John Buchanan McGregor/...McGregor Katharine Rhinnicraig Balquhidder
1751 John McGregor Buchanan/Mary Alexander Rhinacraig Balquhidder
1754 John Buchanan McGregor/McGregor Mary Rhinicraig Balquhidder

Some of the families also have Duncans, so maybe one of them is your Duncan. But there's no evidence that Alexander is related to Duncan, and he may not be in the parish registers, after all his wife Jean isn't, but she is definitely the daughter of Ronald, as her funeral and her parents were recorded by a contemporary witness. This is the problem with guessing based on names, the historical record is incomplete.

The Rob Roy tradition in your husband's family may not mean a direct descent. It could mean the family was from the Glengyle clan, (most families in the area were), which is the family of Rob Roy. It could also mean they were part of Rob Roy's group, maybe originating from the north of Loch Lomond, Lock Katrine, Braes of Balquhidder, Strathfillan area. My family has the same tradition, but from what I can tell my ancestor was Rob Roy's cousin, not a son, and his family lived close to Rob Roy in the Braes.

John.

[marybeth44]

Thanks again John,

Yes I think that was what was meant about Rob Roy.  The family was from that area and probably extended family.

Thank you also for explaining the abbreviations. 

I will have to try for Kathrine Clark's and or Duncan's death cert. if possible.  I do have his son Duncan's he died in 1855.

Thank you too for the list of families, I'll look at them in detail.

I agree guess work really can't give us the answers.

Have a nice day,

Marybeth

[John Andrew Hutchison]

Hi Marybeth,

I've also got a copy of Duncan's death certificate, (the Duncan who lived in Brig o'Turk), and his wife's, Henrietta. My ancestor was also called Duncan, (a common name in the area), so I looked at all the Duncans around that time in order to figure out my tree through elimination.

John.

[John Andrew Hutchison]

Hi Marybeth,

I've been looking through my notes and I also have a record of Duncan and Henrietta's son Duncan's family, (if it helps). He married Anne MacGregor, (b. 4th Nov 1822, chr. 29th Nov 1822 in Aberfoyle, parents Duncan MacGregor and Janet Fergusson);

Duncan Mcgregor+Ann Mcgregor 11 July 1856 Stirling,Stirling
Janet Mc Gregor 3 November 1856 DRYMEN,STIRLING Duncan Mc Gregor/Anne Mc Gregor
Duncan Mac Gregor 23 December 1858 CALLANDER Duncan Mac Gregor/Ann Mac Gregor
Margaret Macgregor 31 March 1862 CALLANDER Duncan Macgregor/Ann Macgregor
Janet Mcgregor 11 April 1869 BUCHANAN,STIRLING Duncan Mcgregor/Ann Mcgregor

And I have his death certificate, (because he was a Duncan, and I have a lot of Duncans in my family tree to figure out).

I was looking at Duncan, the husband of Henrietta, and the children listed on his death certificate. Isabella is odd. She's too young to be Henrietta's daughter, so why is she listed? Maybe she was adopted. Also, she doesn't appear on any of the census records. Their two daughters Margaret and Janet aren't on the certificate, does that mean they died before their father? I guess the Donald McPherson on the census is the son of one of the daughters, but I can't find his christening.

I also have notes on something I played around with regarding Edramucky and Kiltyrie, which are next to each other on the north shore of Loch Tay. I'd noticed that one of Duncan and Katharine Clark's children was born at Edramucky, and their neighbours at Wester Ardchyle, Patrick MacGregor and Janet Fisher, (who are linked to my family), also had a child born at Kiltyrie. This may be a coincidence, but I put all the linked families together, they are;

Duncan and Katharine Clark

1765 Gregor/Kath McDermid Duncan Caoltirie
1768 Gregor/Cath McDairmid Christian Kyltery Kenmore
1771 Grigor/Kath McDiarmid John Kiltiry
1773 Grigor/Kath McDiarmid Katharine Kiltiry
1776 Gregor/Kat McDiarmid Neil Cragan
1779 Gregor/Kat McDiarmid Janet Edramucky

1783 Patrick/Janet Fisher Alexander Kyltirie
1786 Patrick/Janet Fisher John W. Ardchyle
1790 Peter/Janet Fisher Donald Ardchyle
1795 Patrick/Janet Fisher Katharine Easter Ardchyle [who married my ancestor]

1773 Donald/Janet McIntyre Duncan Wester Ardchyle
1776 Donald/Janet McIntyre Alexander Wester Ardchyle
1778 Donald/Christian McIntyre Katharine W. Ardchyle
1782 Donald/Janet McIntyre John Wester Ardchyle
1785 Donald/Janet McIntyre Elizabeth Wester Ardcheil
1787 Donald /Janet McIntyre Christian W. Ardchyle
1792 Donald/Janet McIntyre Mary W. Ardchyle

1771 John/Margaret McDiarmid Christian Caoltirie [should this be Christian?]
1773 John/Christian McDiarmid Duncan Caoltirie
1779 John/Chris McDiarmid John Caoltirie
1781 John/Christian McDiarmid Donald Kiltiry
1786 John/Chris McDiarmid Hugh Kyltirie

Duncan from the last family appears to have inherited the tenancy;

1803 Duncan/Mathie Hall Duncan Kyltirie Killin
1805 Duncan/ Martha Hall Robert Coeltiry Kenmore
1805 Duncan/Mathie Hall Robert Kyltirie Killin
1807 Duncan/Mathie Hall James Tombane Killin [Tombreck, by Blarmore]
1810 Duncan/ Martha Hall Martha Coiltiry Kenmore

And his brother John lived at Tombreck;

1810 John [Kenmore] + Christian [Fortingall]
1811 John/Christian John Tombreck Weem
1812 John/Christian Mary Tombreck Weem
1813 John /Christian Christian [?Tombreck] Weem
1814 John /Christian Duncan Tombreck Weem
1818 John/Christian Catharine Tombreck Weem
1819 John/Christian Peter Tombreck Weem
1821 John/Christian Janet Weem
1824 John/Christian Anne Weem

But by 1861 the family were living at Tigh-Na-Dalloch, by where the Lots of Dalveich used to be. This may all be a coincidence, as it was at least sixty years since Duncan and Katharine Clark lived there.

Anyway, all the families above appear to fit this Balquhidder family;

1731 Alexander/Christian McLaren Janet
1732 Alexander/Christian McLaren Duncan
1734 Alexander/Cirstin McLaren Emilia + Janet [Aspblan orAcspblan?]
1735 Alexander/[] Drumlich
1737 Alexander/[] McLaren John Glenample
1738 Alexander alias Alexander Ban/[] Glengyle [Glenogyle?]
1739 Alexander/[] McLaren Patrick Achvectry [Ardveich?]
1741 Alexander Murray/Christian McLaren Gregor Inverlochraigmore
1730 [IGI and Scotlandspeople say March 1743] Alexander Murray/Christian McLaren Robina [Inverlochlarigmore?]
1745 Alexander McGregor Stirling/Christian McLaren Donald Inverlochraigmore
1747 Alexander McGregor Stirling/Christian McLaren James Innerlochlarigmore
1749 Alexander McGregor Stirling/Christian McLaren Christian Innerlochlarigmore

The Duncan is out, too old to be Katharine Clark's husband, but there are gaps due to the quality of the records, so maybe the first Duncan died and they named another child after him. This Alexander appears to have links to both the Braes of Balquhidder and the Loch Earn area.

The other clan Gregor family living at Innerlochlarigmore from the 1740's was my family. They were the children of Duncan of Drumlich and Portnellan, he was the son of Gregor MacGregor McIan Oig, or John Murray of Ardmacmuine, who was the cousin of Rob Roy. Maybe Alexander was his brother.

This is all speculation, and probably just coincidental, but I though you might be interested.

John.

[marybeth44]

Hi John,

Thank you for all that info, I'll really have to digest it and share it with Janet Brechin another descendant.  Have you ever been in touch with Jim Mcgregor in Canada, he is descended from Robert my Duncan's son. (Duncan and Henny of Brig o Turk)

I have Henrietta Isabella Fergusson's father down as Peter Fergusson and Catharine Mcallum  Now I can't find where I found that info and I can't find her with their family on the familysearch.org.  I'm afraid I have to do my research on a shoe string!!!!.  I found the record of her marriage to Duncan McGregor. in 1821.
I found too, I had typed her birth date down wrong it was abt 1803, which would make her 45 for Isabella's birth which is possible.

I think I'm becoming very confused, it happens when you get older !!!!

Oh well thanks again, I'll have a good look at what you've sent and digest it.

Kind regards,

Marybeth

[John Andrew Hutchison]

Hi Marybeth,

No, I don't think I've been in touch with anyone else about this family tree. I find it useful to talk about the Killin-Balquhidder-Callander-Aberfoyle MacGregors, even if they're not part of my tree, as I'm forced to tidy up my notes, which are always chaotic.

I have Henrietta's marriage as 2nd June 1821. She died 17th January 1864. Her death certificate gives her parents as Peter Ferguson and Catherine Maccallum, but - as you say - her christening isn't in the IGI. This is probably her family;

Peter Fergusson+Catharine Mcallum 20 January 1778 Callander, Perth, Scotland
John Fergusson 29 October 1778/29 October 1778 CALLANDER, PERTH, SCOTLAND Peter Fergusson/Catharine Mcallum
Catharine Fergusson 26 September 1780/26 September 1780 CALLANDER, PERTH, SCOTLAND Peter Fergusson/Catharine Mcallum
Jannet Ferguson 15 December 1796/17 December 1796 CALLANDER, PERTH, SCOTLAND Peter Ferguson/Katherine Mccallum

Her death certificate says she was 60 when she died, which would mean she could be Isabella's mother, but the census records give different ages; 1841=40, 1851=52, 1861=58. I tend to go with the oldest date of birth because people may say they're younger than they are, but they rarely say they're older. That would be before 1800. Also, Duncan was generous with the years, he was born 1786, but the census say; 1841=45, 1851=59, and his death certificate in 1855 says 64. The age difference between Duncan and Henrietta from the census records applied to Duncan's date of christening would also put her birth before 1800. Regardless of the age, it is suspicious that Isabella isn't on the 1851 census, she would be 3 and would be expected to be with her family. It could be she was the illegitimate child of one of their daughters, and they adopted her after 1851. But I'm just guessing.

I had another look at the links to the north of Loch Tay. The link for two of the families could be the wives. Looking at the grave inscriptions in Killin, most MacDiarmids lived around Auchlyne and Kiltyrie, so maybe John and Gregor's wives were sisters, rather than them being brothers. Although, all the MacGregor families around Auchlyne and Kiltyrie appear to name their children with the same names, in roughly the same order. It looks like some sort of naming tradition, which would imply they're related, especially as the two areas are miles from each other, but there is definitely some sort of link.

John.

[marybeth44]

Hi John,

Thanks for that, I was sure I had got her parents from a reputable source but I had a computer crash a couple of years ago and altho' most of my info is backed up, that must not have been.

Re Henrietta's age I had 1803 down but as you say it could have been earlier.  It's interesting to note that between her sisters Catharine and Jannet there is 16 yrs, so maybe Catharine lost some babies.

I will pm you Jim McGregor's email address.  I haven't been in touch with him for a while so I hope it's the same.

Thanks for all you help.

Hope to speak again,

Marybeth

[marybeth44]

Hi John,

I've just been looking for Peter Fergusson's parents and found this,Name:

Fergusson
Gender:   Male
Christening Date:   29 Sep 1759
Christening Place:   BALQUHIDDER,PERTH,SCOTLAND
Birth Date:   
Birthplace:   
Death Date:   
Name Note:   
Race:   
Father's Name:   John Fergusson
Father's Birthplace:   
Father's Age:   
Mother's Name:   Jannet Fergusson
Mother's Birthplace:   
Mother's Age:   
Indexing Project (Batch) Number:   C11331-2
System Origin:   Scotland-ODM
GS Film number:   0993518, 0102689
Reference ID:   



Citing this Record:
"Scotland Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X1FC-Y5Y : 2 January 2015), Fergusson, 29 Sep 1759; citing BALQUHIDDER,PERTH,SCOTLAND, reference ; FHL microfilm 993,518, 102,689.

Interesting but of course only guess work.

There are several Catharine Mcallum's in the general area too.

Marybeth

[John Andrew Hutchison]

Hi Marybeth,

Peter was probably christened Patrick, of which there were many in the area. The gap between 1780 and 1796 may indicate the last record is a different family. However, if you work back from the census records, and compare the results to the parish registers, there are a lot of missing baptisms. Particularly in certain areas, such as Strathfillan and Brig o'Turk. My guess is they were registered at the local kirk, but not passed on to the parish kirk, and so they were lost. The quality of the parish kirk records also creates gaps, and there are sometimes entries which are back dated, so they must have been kept in other documents, and then transcribed when the minister remembered to do it, which could lead to omissions.

John.