Author Topic: Sutherlands, Edinburgh  (Read 594 times)

Offline kjmck

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 530
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Sutherlands, Edinburgh
« on: Tuesday 19 April 16 22:50 BST (UK) »
I'm looking for Adam Sutherland. He was the father of my 4x Great Grandmother, Elizabeth Sutherland who was born c.1784 in Canongate, Edinburgh. On all records I have found of him, he is listed as a porter.

On Elizabeth's death record in 1860, Adam is listed as a Porter, and his wife was given as Janet, but her maiden name was unknown. I have found a death record from 17th May 1807 in Leith South, Edinburgh for an Adam Sutherland, Porter who died of a decline aged 69.

Using all of this info I have looked and looked but cannot find a possible birth matching these details for an Adam Sutherland.

If anyone could help me track down his birth record I would be very grateful.

Cheers,

Keelan

Offline Forfarian

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,075
  • http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ruz/
    • View Profile
Re: Sutherlands, Edinburgh
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 20 April 16 09:14 BST (UK) »
Oh dear :(

This looks a bit like looking in a haystack for a needle that may not be there to start with.

Not all baptisms and marriages made it into the Church of Scotland parish registers, and not all the records that were made have survived. So there may not actually be any record to find.

I assum that you have checked all possible leads at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk including the Roman Catholic baptisms and marriages.

There are some registers of other denominations, but these are generally not available online. On the one hand there are all the assorted minor presybterian churches, sometimes referred to as Secession churches. Most of the extant records of these churches are held in the National Records of Scotland, but they have to be consulted there. However very few of these date from far enough back to include the marriage, let alone the baptism, of your Adam Sutherland. The only ones old enough and extant would be from the Associate Synod (1733), Burgher (1747), Antiburgher or General Associate Synod (1747) and Relief (1761) churches, and a few Reformed Presbyterian and United Presbyterian records dating from the mid-18c century. You would need to know where to look geographically to use these records, or plan to spend a very long time peering at screens.

Another possibility is records of the Episcopal Church. However these are hard to find because they are not held centrally; some are in local archives, some in diocesan archives and some in the individual churches. So you really have to know where to look, and without knowing where Adam Sutherland came from it would be a huge task.

I note from the IGI that with a single exception all the Adam Sutherlands baptised before 1800 were baptised in one of the northern counties - Shetland, Orkney, Caithness, Sutherland, Aberdeenshire. The exception is one baptised in Edinburgh in 1769, which is far too late to be a husband and father in 1784*, and to be the one who died in 1807, assuming that they are one and the same, which does seem likely.

*Theoretically he could have married at 14, in 1783, and fathered a child born in 1784, but in practice boys didn't marry as young as that because they had to be able to support a wife and family before they could consider marriage. Also, assuming that you have arrived at 1784 by subtracting Elizabeth's age at death from 1860, then depending on when she died in 1860, she could have been born in 1783. And that assumes that her age on her death certificate is accurate. If the informant didn't know the surname of Elizabeth's mother, can (s)he be relied on to know Elizabeth's age correctly?

This Adam, born 1769, is the son of a John Sutherland and Agnes Semple. Speculating wildly, I wonder if this John Sutherland could be a brother of your Adam? Might just be worth a look. I note that John S and Agnes Semple were married in 1762 and had a daughter Jean in 1764 and a daughter Janet in 1767, then John in 1769.

On the other hand, I note that an Adam Sutherland and Janet Fraser had a son Alexander in Aberdeen in 1781. More speculation: could this be an older brother of your Elizabeth, his parents then moving to Edinburgh before Elizabeth's birth? (Does the 1851 census actually say that Elizabeth was born in Canongate?) It might be interesting to see what that Adam's occupation was.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline kjmck

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 530
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Sutherlands, Edinburgh
« Reply #2 on: Monday 25 April 16 16:59 BST (UK) »
Hi Forfarian!

Thank you for your message, very detailed and an interesting read. As I live in Wales, a trip up to Scotland would probably be needed. I was hopeful in a way, because I thought that maybe Adam wasn't too common a name back then so thought searching for an Adam Sutherland would be fairly straightforward. How wrong I was!

Elizabeth's death was registered by her daughter, Margaret McFadden who was at the time residing on the Isle of Coll but who wasn't present at the death. Elizabeth died on the 13th of February in 1860, listed as 74 years of age. So yes, she could well have been born in 1783 assuming that the age given for her at death was accurate.

In 1851, 'Betsey' Mckenzie is listed as being born in 'Canogate, edinr' and is down as being 70 years old with a birth year of 1781. In 1841 she is listed as being born simply in Scotland, and 55 years of age, giving her a birth year of 1786.

So, do you think then that the death for Adam Sutherland in 1807, is more likely not the father of my Elizabeth? Even though he is also listed as a Porter? It Reads: - Adam Sutherland, Porter from the House of James Grant, Comb Maker, Baillie, Fyfes Close, Died of a Decline. Buried the side of the Grave one Yard South from Ainslie's Tomb Door. Aged 69

I too found the marriage for Adam Sutherland and Janet Fraser, and their son Alexander. I also found a marriage for an Adam Sutherland to Janet McDonald on 1 June 1778 in Aberdeen.




Offline Forfarian

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,075
  • http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ruz/
    • View Profile
Re: Sutherlands, Edinburgh
« Reply #3 on: Monday 25 April 16 17:08 BST (UK) »
In 1851, 'Betsey' Mckenzie is listed as being born in 'Canogate, edinr' and is down as being 70 years old with a birth year of 1781.
The census was taken on 30 March 1851 so if her age is accurate she was born between 31 March 1780 and 30 March 1781.

Quote
In 1841 she is listed as being born simply in Scotland, and 55 years of age, giving her a birth year of 1786.
Adults' ages in 1841 were supposed to be rounded down to the nearest 5 years, and the census was taken on 7 June 1841. So assuming her age was accurate, she would have been born between 8 June 1781 and 7 June 1786.

It won't have escaped you that these two sets of dates don't quite overlap, so you can be certain that at least one of them is not accurate!

Quote
So, do you think then that the death for Adam Sutherland in 1807, is more likely not the father of my Elizabeth?
I think it is very likely indeed that he is the father of your Elizabeth.

Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.